Bestselling author and counselor John Eldredge breaks down common destructive behaviors, rejecting religion vs. rejecting the reality of God and why it is sometimes hard to hear the voice of God. Practice: Tune into your heart by being still for 5 minutes today.
The 10000 MINUTES Podcast is a weekly deep dive into the adventures and struggles of living out our daily lives WITH Jesus, not for Him. Also, we like to laugh. A lot. Maybe too much.. Ok, maybe too much.
Episode Summary:
Bestselling author and counselor John Eldredge breaks down common destructive behaviors, rejecting religion vs. rejecting the reality of God and why it is sometimes hard to hear the voice of God.
Practice: Tune into your heart by being still for 5 minutes today.
If you’ve found this or another practice helpful, let us know at mail@10000minutes.com and we might include your story in a future episode!
Show Notes:
“Resilient” Book
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Evil, Satan, the kingdom of darkness, however you want to describe that. Tried to stop the revolution by killing Jesus, and it backfired terribly. He then tried it again by killing all of the, all of the apostles. It backfired. He kept trying it for a while, and then he realized, I can't stop this thing. So here's what I'm gonna do. Um, my next move is I'm gonna create a brilliant counterfeit, and I'm gonna warehouse millions of people in religion, but they have no experience of God.
Okay, everybody, welcome to 10,000 Minute podcast.
I'm sorry too. I think you were trying to say something, but
I I can't quite hear you. He's
Gonna keep this. I think there's, I think there's construction happening outside.
You go, sir. Sir, thank you so much,
Chris. Oh. Oh, no, nevermind. It's just
Chris is Tim Timmons.
Hi, Tim.
Hey. Hey, ammo.
So guys, Chris, uh, Cleveland is over here and he is, he's being a servant.
He of service love
Language. He did just spill his drink on the floor, but then he got me a, a cup of water. I did. You're welcome,
For a little bit, but yeah.
So we're sponsored by Costco Water
Whatever that thing is. We're not really good. Is that why it sounds that way? No, it's empty and it's got a little red light and I just, oh,
Okay. That's okay. I'll also, hi everybody. I'm Moy
Um, okay. We've got a great, oh my gosh. Every time it feels a little cliche and stupid, but, but
This one, but it's not because what has been our mission to find intentional conversations with people who know things. And so all these conversations are great.
Yep, yep. Yep.
We want them to be great
For you guys. And this one's really great. So I remember when I was younger.
Hmm. Yeah.
There's a book that came out called Wild at Heart. Yep. Uh, and it was really a profound book for so many people. And so many people's lives were changed in so many different ways, and some people have agreed and disagreed through the years. Yeah. And I was really excited to have this same author on our podcast.
Yeah. I was geeking you out.
Yeah. We kind of geeked out. Uh, so John Eldridge people, he's an author, and I had somebody yesterday on an airplane,
Yeah, for sure.
Uh, no, I didn't really. But they were talking about how profound this new book is. Mm. So anywho, you guys, you're gonna love this episode so much. And if you don't, that's fine too. Right. But there's something to learn here. So whether you agree with all this stuff or not, there's some, there's some profound mm-hmm.
I liked it.
Okay.
I know that's
Season two. Used to be It's hard
To let go of who
Used to be season two now. Mm-hmm.
Let's move on.
Yeah, let's move on. Let's get, let's get it
Together.
I see him on my right. Gosh,
That is so correct. In a lot of ways. And then we've got a MOIs over here. Hello
Everybody.
Hi. And then we've got George in the room and George has been saying a lot of inappropriate words as today. So I feel like we're trying to really calm down. I've heard
Say three words at
Least today. Yeah. Yeah. It's not true everybody. It's not true. But it's funny just to make fun of George in that way. Um, everybody, we have Mr. John Eldridge on with us. Ooh,
Exciting.
Good to have you on, John.
Yeah. Thanks guys. I'm looking forward to this. You are, you are characters
Yeah. So everybody, lemme just give you a little, just That's good representation. Reading people. So we first got on Jor. John doesn't know us from crap. I mean, poor guy. And I'm just, I'm me. And so I'm talking a lot, being mm-hmm.
Yeah. The quietness is also, um, respect. Like, this is your gig and I want to get to know you a little bit. And so, yeah. Man, this is this. You're in the lead here. I'm
Already save per yet already perspective. I wanna cry.
I feel seen We're we're the
Tissues again. I think we're done
Oh, listen, get me going
Is that how it works? Well, I'm just, I'm looking at your background cuz we also do a little, this will be on the YouTubes as well. That's a, it's a internet site. This
Internet
Aler
Deer Antler? That's an elk. Yeah, that's a six, six point elk antler. Yeah.
That'd be a big deer. Yeah.
Well, you know,
Like
A Kansas deer
Wow. Oh, and then, then is that door, is that camouflage that door?
No, you know what that is? That's, uh, a cork board. It's like authentic. It's authentic quirk. Whoa. And I use, use it for a couple reasons, but here's a cool thing. Did you know the cork actually purifies the room?
No. In what
Way? Yeah.
Yeah. It's antimicrobial. It's got all these amazing
In a literal way.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, that's way too soter
But we can go there.
It's like nature's air freshener.
Okay. That's what, that's what cork is.
Yeah. Isn't that cool?
What does cork come? I mean, I know the answer. I just don't think I'm asking for a friend. Uh, what does Cork come from?
Right? From oak trees.
Okay. Yep. See, I knew that you guys, you probably didn't know that. Mm-hmm.
From oak trees.
Yeah. Yeah. It's a growth that takes place on oak trees. Right. Really difficult to harvest. And it's an amazing, amazing price. Why they use, you know, they used to use it to cork wine bottles cuz it would preserve the wine.
Wow.
Does it, is it come in? I mean, gosh, now I'm thinking a whole lot. No,
Hang on. We're going, let's just ask some questions that have nothing to do with Yeah, yeah. While we're here.
Uh, okay. So do you have a lot of oak trees with cork growing on them? Wild. Um, in Colorado? Cause that's where you live, correct?
Nah, no, no. This is pine trees. This is, yeah. No, but I like the beauty of it. And then, yeah, I do use it when I'm in a writing project, you know, I'll stick little notes on there and kind of do, I'll do a conceptual version of a book before I write the book. Cool.
Yeah. That's cool.
Okay. And then the other side, you've just got books and just stuff
Yeah. Broad swords, things like that. Yeah.
That's, that's
A, that is a broad sword. Wow. All right. Yeah. He's got a sword collection. Did you kill the elk with the sword?
Mm. This is valid
Validation.
Not
Yet. Oh, okay. Okay, okay.
Not yet. That would be a, that would be a first. I don't, I don't know that that's been done in this century.
Wilded heart gone camping.
Gone hunting outdoors
In the wild at heart. Yeah. Two books together anyway. Mm-hmm.
Um, okay. So, um, we are, this is the 10,000 minute podcast. Hopefully it won't go that long. Um, but we're trying to figure out how do we practice the way in the heart of Jesus and join Jesus in the 10,000 minutes of our week. Not just in, um, the time that we gather as the church, but as we're scattering as the church. What does it look like for us to actually re-present the heart of Jesus that's actually being transformed in us? And what's that? You know, when Jesus says, whoever hears my words and puts 'em into practice all week long, you're wise. It's like building your house in a rock. Um, if not, it's just kind of foolish. So that, that's really the heart behind this. And so we are actually three just curious people. Mm-hmm.
Well, here, here you go. You want the visual, um, so all these books on the floor here. Yeah. I'm trying. That's
The dream.
Yeah. Just be, so have those been read or are they the two B red pile?
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're, it's both. It's, it's halfway partway Curious.
Love it. I like it.
Yeah.
Okay. From all things, from all kinds of authors, are you Oh,
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Everything. History, natural science. Yeah. Yep.
Okay. So, uh, have you always been curious?
Yes, always. Yeah. It was fascinating. My family and I grew up kind of in a typical, like, suburban American household and it was tv Right? That's what they did at night. And I, I couldn't watch it. I don't, I have not watched TV ever since I was a child. I'm just not interested in it. Oh my gosh. And so, like, people are like, oh, the Brady Bunch, remember? I, like, I literally have never seen it.
Yeah.
And, but I'm curious. So I like to read and I like to get outside. I like to watch movies. I like to travel. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Okay.
But, but particularly, I'm particularly curious about the human heart. So I'm a therapist and Yeah. And yeah. I love listening to people's stories. Love getting into like the, the rooms of the human heart.
Are there, are there, uh, certain rhythms that you see all the time? I love asking therapists, just what do you learn about people? You're sitting with people all the time. What are some like major themes that you see in humanity that are just,
Huh, yeah. Um, profound longing and a very impressive capacity for a denial.
Mm. Wow.
Okay. Right. I mean,
Say that, say that one more time.
Oh, goodness. Profound longing. Cuz the human heart is just made up of longing. Right. It, it, it's something that we have desire. We are desire. Right. And, and, but also this phenomenal capacity to live in denial. To just deny the impact of your story on your life. Deny the reality of the world that you're living in. Uh, yeah. Okay. So for example, we've just been through two years of global trauma.
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Well, and that, that's your, that's your book. I mean, just to jump into it, which is we, I've, we have so many questions about this, but Resilient is your book.
Yep.
Um, so restoring your weary soul in these turbulent times. Um, what we loved about this is we are just reading through your, your stuff. You know, all the stuff that you probably didn't write, but somebody else wrote
Mm-hmm. Well, okay, so we'll,
We'll get into what's helping them, but what Yeah. Yeahs like, underneath the un thing that's underneath it, you know? Yeah.
Yeah. Um, so the self on the self destructive behaviors, it's your pace of life is a totally unconsidered pace of life. There's no soul room, there's no breathing room, there's no margin. They just, they just go, just, um, pace of life is killing people. No opportunity to express their emotions. Right? So suppression of emotion, I'm fine. Um, that's killing people. And then all your, all your, you know, self soothing behaviors, right? Like, what do you, what do you do for comfort if you don't get real comfort? What do you do for comfort? Right? So, you know, our addictions and, and, and the stuff that we get trapped in, and I'm not just talking about like the hardcore, you know, narcotics or sexual stuff, but just all the things you do. What, what are your self comforting behaviors? Because they, they don't, most of them don't work, you know, binge watching. Netflix does not restore the soul
So funny that comes up in a lot of the podcasts. Yeah. People talk, I mean, that, that specifically, I mean, that seems like a thing, you know, the whole binge watching. We just have a lot of people that talk about that, use that as an example of something that's not good for the soul. Right. And yet, back to your first point, we all kind of still, not all of us, you don't, but other humans do. Uh, just, we just keep going back to something that it's like, I know this isn't restoring mm-hmm.
Yeah.
In and of itself, watching a movie on Netflix is not a bad Yeah. Inherent thing. So what's underneath the thing that's underneath the thing? Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And why are people not asking those questions to themselves? Is that outta fear time? Um, permission. I feel like I see it a lot around with friends where I'm like, take time alone to do the work or ask the, and it's just the last thing they wanna do. Mm-hmm.
I think you're right, Mo. I think, I think people are afraid of what they'll find. Hmm. I think they, they fear that they will be overwhelmed if they open that closet. Hmm. Right. That it's just gonna be too much. If I go down that rabbit hall, I will never get out, particularly with grief. Mm-hmm.
Hmm. Gosh. It's so, I mean, listener, dear listener. What, what does that for you? I mean, what would that look like for you? Why do you stop? I mean, I'm thinking that's totally me in a lot of ways. I mean, there's so many different ways that I do that, but in times that I do that, but it, it really is, uh, gosh, I keep coming up against the same thing and I'm tired of it. Mm-hmm.
What's the difference between finding soul space, like you mentioned, and, um, and disappearing, you know,
Well, you, you just named it, you, you used the word disappearing because in one of those practices, you are present.
Ah,
And in the other practice, you are gone. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Like, you are literally not present. You're not present to yourself or anybody else in the room, you know? Mm-hmm.
What does that look like? How do you do that?
So one of the wildest things a person can do is to love God in their suffering.
Hmm.
And, and let me explain why, because like, you know, you burn your hand on the stove, you know, you, you, you pull back. And this, by the way, this is like a really serious global phenomenon. Well, I'll explain that if you want. But, um, right now, disappointment, trauma, heartache and, and what I would call serial disappointment. Mm-hmm. Chronic disappointment mm-hmm. Has caused people to pull back mm-hmm.
Can you give an example of how that would go? Cause I mean, that all sounded wonderful, and I'm nodding going, oh, that sounds really great, but I don't know what that looks like. So, to engage, God, I, I forget exactly how you said that. In the midst of sorrow,
Love God, love God in your suffering. Yes. In your suffering. Okay.
So like, give give practical
Story of Yeah. So, um, we, we have some heartache going on in our family right now where some of our, uh, we have, we have adult children. They're married, they have families. Yes. Yep. And, and one of the siblings is really pulling away from all the others. And they used to be really close. Yes. Uh, they're pulling away from us for reasons that frankly they haven't explained to us yet. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's really heartbreaking. Yeah. Uh, didn't show up for Easter. Don't want to come for Christmas. Yeah. All, all that stuff. Um, and don't want to, you know, family vacation together and no hanging out. Okay. So that is heartbreaking.
Sorry, John.
Yeah. And, and, and so rather than just going whatever, whatever, um, I entered that and I, and I, I, I experienced my heartache. I go, you know what? I am really grieving that, that is so freaking sad. Yeah. Okay. In that place. So I'm not disappearing. I am showing up to the suffering. And in that place, they say, but you know what, Jesus, I, I actually do love you. I actually do love you. I'm not trying to fix it. I'm not even trying to understand it. I just begin with, but, but I actually do love you. And, and what it allows my soul that's done this, and the pain that's enclosed in it's gone clamshell in the pain. It, it allows my soul to open back up to the presence of Jesus in my life. Does that help? Does that guide you?
I think so. I, I mean, I hear that pain, and I will say it again. I'm so sorry. I mean, that this just, it's crazy that that is such a, a normal thing that's going on right now. Right. And as a parent, I can't even imagine that with my humans that you've shaped for all these years. And so, sorry.
Yep. Thank you. Um,
In that, I, I'm trying to, so you're just, you're just saying in a sense, God, I do love you. So what, what does that, what does it look like? What does love look like? Like I'm just, I'm real practical. I'm not the brightest of all the, these humans in this room, but I, I'm really going, what does that practically look like? I know that you're saying, God, I love you in the midst of this. I'm, I know I'm missing it. So just say it again in another way.
What do you give your affection to? What has your delight? There are things that, that you have affection and delight for. Right. And it, it might be music. It, it might be the lake house. Right. It might be your road bike, but you have affection and delight in those things. You love those things. Yeah. They get, they get your affection. Right. And so I put my affection in God, I, I actually delight. I love God. I really do. A, a, a and I have a very deep, rich friendship with God. And so when I'm hurt, it can feel like you didn't do anything about that. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
When I think about deep, rich friendships, I think of like a re a reciprocal communication. And so I see, like in that scenario, you telling God this, what are you feeling? What are you getting? I think in return Yes. In that friendship.
Yeah. Well, okay. So like, gosh, we could go off into, um, one of, one of the great losses of, of Christian spirituality in this century is, is the ability to hear the voice of God. It's a practice that was known to the saints down through the centuries. You read any of the Desert Fathers, you read Teresa of Avia. You read St. John of the Cross. I mean, you know, uh, these folks heard God a w Tosser, CS Lewis, Dallas, Willard. You know what I get in that moment? I, I hear him, I hear his voice. He speaks to me. Now, he doesn't always speak to me the answer to the immediate problem. But, but guys, there were two trees in the gardens. The tree of knowledge and the tree of life. We, we, we chose the wrong tree. We think that answers are gonna solve things when what we need is life.
So it's, it's, it's intentionally like if there's a practice, just a practice, it's intentionally saying, gosh, all day long, what are the things of tree of knowledge that I'm really just ch just choose
Totally. That,
That have my attention. And we talk a lot about, um, one of the breathing prayers we do a lot with 10,000 minutes is just breathing in Jesus. Yes. Breathing out, you have my attention. Yes. And there's a different one that I'm hearing from you. It's almost, it's, it's just, it's cuz I, I think in suffering, I understand the bottom of it as contentment, you know, this like deep contentment. But what I'm, I'm learning and just kind of gathering is there's also this other piece of like, yes, there's contentment and just, okay, God, you're at work and all things, but there's also, Jesus, you have my affection. Yes. Like affection and attention are similar in the same area, but they're actually different.
You vary. Mm-hmm.
Hmm. What do you say to people who would be, because I think a lot of our listeners are people also that are like, Nope, I, I don't hear voice of God. Um, I heard all you Christian people talk about that a long time. You know, like, I should have heard it and I didn't hear crap. So help me out here. You know?
Yes.
How do you, how do you help people in those places? Yep.
Or
How do you steer them?
A couple thoughts. Um, one you could ask what's in the way? Hmm. What's in the way? Um, it, it, I'll bet it is, um, some form of disappointment.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That where most people start to ask that question though? Is the middles crap? It's like, I know. It's in the middle of it. It's like I want
I know, I know, I know. That's funny. But I I'm just telling you it doesn't work. Yeah. And it's frus it's frustrating. Yeah. And then people stop. They say, well, I, I guess I just don't hear the voice to God. You go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Time up. Let's reboot this. Huh. Why don't you practice that in much smaller ways? Mm-hmm.
Hmm. Like,
Well, like, Lord, um, is this a good weekend to have that camping trip? Should we go this weekend or should we wait something simple like that? And he'll go, nah, wait. You go, oh, okay. And then it rains that weekend and you're like, thank you. You know, little things that you get affirmation in small
Stuff. What's the difference between like intuition and discernment and maybe you just got lucky with the weather, you know? Um,
Choose some, choose something you couldn't have known. Hmm. Right. Choose something you couldn't have known, because yeah, you can have a bunch about things.
I've always, I've always wondered this, I've been in the church my whole life, uh, and never felt like I've ever heard the voice of God ever. Um, and, uh, and maybe got to a point where I thought, I, I don't know if God cares about all this stuff. Like, like, I think maybe he's just like given me a, um, like kind of a, a broad canvas to paint on. And it's like, well, choose your colors and, and I'll be with you no matter what you draw. And, and, and that's kind of how I've approached life. And so the way you're kind of describing is like, oh, actually this, and this is maybe a little off of where we were gonna go, but we're doing great. There's, uh, now I'm like, oh, I can practice hearing the voice of God. I'm like, a, I get really initially skeptical. I'm like, well, I don't know. I've been doing it a long time and I've been praying to God for a long time and in different ways as I've gotten older. Um, and, and sometimes in, you know, good ways and bad ways and simple ways and hard ways. And, um, and I've still never heard the voice of God. Um, and so maybe I'm, I'm just thinking through it and, or
Maybe, maybe, you know, it's possible that you have and you reason and you've reasoned it away.
What's very could be. Yeah. Cuz I, I am that person for sure. Yeah. And I wonder, how do you, well, even that brings up the question. It's like, well, is it my reasoning
I,
Now I'm thinking
Yeah. I've gotta, I've gotta back up for a moment. You, you just said, I've never heard the voice of God in my life. And, and honestly, I I could start weeping like that. That that is a very serious thing you just said. And, and a source of real disappointment and sorrow. Yeah. Like, that's not okay by me. Hmm. That's not okay for you. Like, I, I don't wanna sit here and just let that go by.
Yeah.
Like, there are reasons some things in the way. Okay. And, and the first thing that's in that way, like, I've been in church all my life. Well, that'll do it.
I mean, I, I mean, that'll do it. That, that, that will fill you with so much religion, uhhuh
Know,
And, and you wouldn't have any listeners, like, like the idea of communication is at the core of what it means to be human. Hmm. Okay. Because that's what God's like, he, he is, he, he is a communicating. He's a person. He has a personality, he has a sense, he has a sense of humor. He, he's ironic, he's sarcastic, he's playful, he's dead serious. He's, he's everything a person is. Mm-hmm.
I'm thinking more of like, as a society who's gone through going back to that pandemic and global trauma, one of the main things you would say is denial. Denial is in the way. And so, almost practicing this communication with God is accepting what truly is already happening and has happened. So overcoming denial and then being present to what the true comfort is that we seek, seek, which is from Jesus. And so being, practicing communication with the true comfort instead of coping. Does that make sense? Yeah. That's what it's getting from.
Yeah. That's really good. Yeah. Over overcoming fear, um, cynicism, because the cynicism is protecting you. What's it protecting you from? Well, it's protecting you from disappointment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So just being honest about that. Right. Being honest about that.
Are there ways then that you would encourage people then to move from, uh, disappointment? I mean, uh, so again, so many questions. Mm-hmm.
Yes. So, um, three, three thoughts. First off, he obviously speaks in a ton of ways mm-hmm.
So I would say tune into your heart. Just, just begin, you know, set five minutes aside each day. Just take five minutes where you don't have any media, your phone's on airplane mode. You're just, you know, you got five minutes. Sit out on the back porch and just tune into your own heart. What am I feeling? What am I desiring? What am I experiencing? Because as you begin to get in tune with your heart, that is the receiver
Uhhuh
Mm-hmm.
Do you love me
Of God?
Mm-hmm.
Huh?
Somebody else is in the room. You, you have an enemy who hates your guts. Right. And he's gonna try and interfere with the, with the love story. He hates the love story. Right. So you ask questions like, do you love me? You, you a you ask questions like, are you with me? Okay. And you listen for simpleness to begin with. You don't ask, should I go to grad school? You know, it's not a time to change the career. Don't, don't ask the big
Step double diamonds. Yep. We're we're talking green bunny slope here.
Yeah. Man. Yeah. Get on the bunny slope. Get the hang of it. Put the training wheels back on the experiment.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's, that's huge. I think that's huge. I think when I'm thinking about this, I, some of my skeptic is skepticism comes from all the baggage of being with people that are like, oh, I just got that parking spot. God just gave me that parking spot. I'm like,
But you're so certain he did. I don't, I don't know. Or, you know, God, God left that piece of pizza there for me, and maybe he
Did. I know. And
I think there's been so much of that that it's like, yep. Gosh. And some of those, I just, I, they got crazy bug on 'em. And I'm like, I don't want to be that to this world. And I don't. Yep.
Yeah. I think I've always also seen the people who've claimed like, God's call and I'm like, oh, was it?
Yeah. Or,
You know. Yes,
Yes,
Yes. Maybe abused the, the idea or thought of it as well.
So the training wheels really make bingo sense.
Bingo. Bingo. Jackpot. Yes. Right. It's the abuse of it that's caused most of us to go, eh. Yeah. I, I, uh, I don't know, man. People have just, I, I don't wanna be one of those, you know, I
Don't baby out with a bath.
Well, it's like sex. I mean, horrible things have been done with sex. Yeah. But it doesn't make sex bad.
Yeah.
Right. And people need a, a healing journey with their sexuality. But but you don't just stop the story. Yeah. You don't just say, well, I'm gonna reject all that romance, intimacy, love any of that. I'm just, no. Right. Yeah. Because people do all kinds of stupid stuff with it. Horrible stuff with it. Yeah. Well, imagine this, this is the love story. This is the intimacy. This is the epicenter that the ancient war of the world is over the human heart. Everything else is a sideshow.
Hmm. How do you differentiate the heart and the soul and the mind
Yeah. Right on. Okay. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul minded strength. That's right. Yeah. I would say that the heart is the epicenter. Okay. The mind is given to us to protect the heart, but actually your mind as a cognitive function, it's not where you hold your deepest convictions. Mm-hmm.
Here.
Yeah. These sometimes, I mean, I studied a bunch of this stuff with, uh, with, not with Willard, but just of Dallas Willard's ideas of these things. And it really actually started shaping my view of God. I mean, it actually became important, and we don't need to jump onto that in this, but it is an, an important question. Yeah. It is. Because our, our understanding and our belief about God actually dictates how I will live my life.
Oh. I think it's absolutely,
It's interesting too, like to tell my, like I've had an issue of like, even with my kids, like saying God lives in their heart and them thinking like their physical Yeah. He's like, Hey, he can't fit in here. You know? Yes. Or, or whatever that is. And then Yes. Like even being able to unpack that to them. Yes. Um,
So here's the phrase I use to help them. I say, it's the deepest truest, you,
Uh,
Your heart is the deepest, truest you.
Yeah. We live out of the overflow of the heart that makes Yeah. We do sense. Okay. Yeah. So that if that's the deepest truest you, it's like, I believe that these things are true cognitively. Yes. But if you actually wanna see how I really, what's actually in the deepest, would you say the deepest,
Truest you
Truest
You, you, you'll see how I actually live. Yep.
Yeah. Versus versus what I say. I mean, it's why, why it's so stupid that we have all of our stuff is like, I believe, I believe, I believe it's like belief has zero to do. I mean, the way that we see belief has zero to do with action. And what actually happens, it's like this cognitive ascent. Yes. And I think we even fight against that, even in prayer. And all this stuff is like fighting against this, invite him into your heart, and that's the whole deal. Like you just invited him into your heart, but there's nothing else happening mm-hmm.
Yeah. But so how, okay, so where do you go with that? I mean, I, I'm,
Well, okay. So I, earlier in the conversation, I wanted to say this, and it's circled back around to this. So what we, what we call the Christian experience we call a life with God is fundamentally supposed to be deeply experiential. It is not primarily a belief system.
Right? Right.
Okay. It, it is not primarily an ethical code.
Right.
Okay. It is primarily deeply experiential. We are deeply experiential beings. Right. You do the stuff you love to do because you like the experience of it. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Trust me.
Okay. All right. So, so this is really important that, that if what has gotten in the way of a rich experience of God, because it's meant to be, when, when John opens his first epistle, he says, what, what our eyes have seen, what our hands have handled. Right. We wanna make known to you so that you can experience it too. Like he says, the reason that we're writing you these epistles is so that you can experience Jesus. Just like we did.
Not just believe it in some mental thing.
Yeah. Right. Or just show or just show up, you know, to the meeting or whatever. Yeah. Man
Buying, buy the books right now,
Your favorite flavor of ice cream? Yeah.
Like, I think you'll reveal a lot about who you are. No, I'm good. No, I, I think a lot about the last few years with a bunch of my friends in new communities, I've, I've found myself in with people who have started to, um, what's the word? Deconstruct
Their faith. Yeah. De deconstruct their faith.
Yeah. And, and just kind of question, would there be, is there like a possibility that that's them hearing the voice of God with certain things of like, maybe that's not like when you, when you feel it in your, in your gut or in your spirit, that doesn't sound like that aligns with God. Um, or, or whatever that might be. Is that another way of hearing God's voice, I guess is what I'm trying to ask? While
There're It
Could be curious.
It it could be, it could be because, um, so y you don't understand the world without understanding evil. The presence of evil, you know, human trafficking, right. Just, uh mm-hmm.
Um, my next move is I'm gonna create a brilliant counterfeit, and I'm gonna warehouse millions of people in religion, but they have no experience of God. Mm-hmm.
Who, who are you de who are you deconstructing with? Who are you actually going through this thing with is so important.
Your voices who is helping you reconstruct Yeah. A healthy perception and experience of God. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And, and that I'm gonna hand you something really easy with that nature. Go to nature, right. You wanna know what god's like go to nature, like the extravagance, the abundance, the lushness, the variety. It's so filled with life. It's like, holy cow, it's so unreligious. Right? As soon as you feel the religious coming in, you just think of the ocean.
Mm-hmm.
I, I, I'm just gonna push one more time at something
Yes. It's the, the, there's a couple things we have really made clear in this conversation. And one is that this is a very dangerous world. Huh. And nobody told us that growing up. Huh? This is a very dangerous world and, and human brokenness can take place in even the most beautiful environments that were supposed to be. Life giving family, sexuality. God.
Yeah. Yeah. Church even.
Okay. Yeah. So, so at least we, at least we can say, look, gang, the, the ancient war for the human heart is serious business. You can't di around with this. Okay. That the trauma can come in in so many different ways, including through religious experience. Yeah. So for one person, they need to deconstruct their hardcore reform theology cuz it's totally killed their heart. For another person, they need to get out of this toxic, charismatic whoop de lou that that that they found frankly very manipulative.
Yeah. Right.
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but what we're all trying to do is, is to heal the human heart so we can have a life with God again,
A a more full, real version Yes. Of God with a more full and understood and healthier version of my truest self. Yes. It's like the two, I mean, I guess that would be like, the point in life would be how do we as a community individuals, but in a community see the most truest, what was your deepest truest self? Self your heart. Mm-hmm.
Yep. Yeah. That's be, that's beautiful. That's a great way of saying it.
Gosh. Putting those two together. I mean, I'm a, I'm emotional about that. And
I think too, I just think about a lot of my friends that I've made in the last few years, um, who left the church and therefore feel like they have no more contact with God. But really talking to them, I feel like what they're actually doing is intentionally trying to hear the voice that God, by all the questions that they're making, I'm like, I would, I wish he didn't feel like, because they say you don't have communication with God anymore cuz you no longer come to this building that you feel like you've lost everything. Cuz I really still think you're hearing the voice of God. It just might not look like what you're used to. And it would free a lot of my friends to continue to seek him without the, the shame or, or the limitation of like, but because I'm no longer this type of Christian, I don't actually talk to God anymore, which I'm like, I don't know if that's true. What if you are hearing him right now in this moment because you're asking about him and you're seeking him in a different way,
You're a really good soul.
True
Yeah. Right on. That is beautiful.
Yeah. Mo Mo is, Mo is one of our favorites for many reasons, but called
It I told you No,
Yeah, exactly. What they're, I I guarantee you 90% of 'em, there's maybe a 10% that's a different story, but they're, what they're rejecting is religion. Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
In a new way with you and, and use Jesus because he's so specific. God. I mean, what the hell? I mean who, right. What what does that mean? You know,
It's intimate. Yeah.
Jesus is
Oof.
Wow.
Relearn how to ride that bike.
Trade
Reels back on. Right. And that's profound.
Mm-hmm.
Because I feel like that's, that's what they almost wanna have permission for. Yeah. In our conversations. I feel like that's what they're asking for. Yep. Permission. I'm like, yes.
Hmm. Uh, John, we could literally go on for the next five hours, but we've just gone on with our, we want to just respect your time and we didn't even get to the stuff that I wanted to get to, which is so great.
Yeah. What we got, what we got to was more important. Yeah. Because this is the crisis that many people are living in.
For sure. For sure. Well, people if, we'll, we'll tell you in all other notes, but, um, his work on the pandemic and suffering and young and old needing to find some healing and not just, uh, wallpaper over a hole in the wall, um, is really beautiful. So check that out everybody. Um, John, thank you so much.
Yeah, man, this was awesome. I loved it.
Well, you haven't finished yet,
Broad sword
Oh gosh, I'm reading a fascinating history about the Irish monks and their mar their maritime skills. They actually discovered North America a thousand years before anybody else.
Oh my gosh.
It was Irish Monks.
Irish Monks. What's that book called?
Yeah, it's called Brendan. The Brendan
Voyage. The Brendan Voyage. Yep. I read it's the same one. That is so weird. That is
Yeah, man. Okay. And everybody thought it was a big Irish folk tale, St. Brendan and all that. And then this dude rebuilds the boat he built and takes the route he takes and he does it. He's like, no, this is totally doable. Yeah. Wow.
Wow. Whew. Okay. The nineties
A lot of joy.
Yeah. I was, I was in my twenties. No, I was in my thirties in the nineties. Okay. And so young marriage, young kids, uh, yeah. That, that was a really joyful time.
Love that. Mm-hmm.
Um,
Besides doing this podcast? You nailed it.
You know, it's really funny. I, because of my worldview, I don't have a bucket list. Hmm. Because I don't think we exchange one reality for another at the restoration. I think that, that the coming of the kingdom of God restores all things. Right. It doesn't blow up the world like the death star, huh. Right. So I, I'm not, I'm not worried. I like, life goes on.
I mean, that sounds like Willard when Willard would talk about death. Yes. It's like, I, I, the more that I'm seeking first the kingdom of God, I, I don't know if I'll even know the difference.
Right. Hmm. Yeah. Dallas's funny lie was, he says, many people will be very surprised to realize
Gosh. With that view. That's beautiful. I love that answer. Okay. Well, that'll be our next podcast. Um, favorite place in the world.
Ooh. Um, on, on a river Live fishing.
Yeah. I think our friend went, uh, on the refuge, but I don't think you do. Have you done the refuge stuff? You, you bring guys on stuff, is that correct? Yeah.
Yeah. We, we do stuff like that. Yeah.
Love that. Yeah. Love that. Sign me up. Yeah. Duh.
Oh, bad habit. I,
I, I'm not gonna let you say no because if you do, then I'm just gonna have to go jump off a cliff. So go
I, I, yeah. Th there's just too many. I dismiss people too easily. Um, I, I eat way too much chocolate. I, I had to stop drinking red wine because that was starting to turn into an addiction.
Yeah,
Yeah. Yeah. So it's, yeah.
Yeah. Love it. Thank you. Yeah. That got real
Know I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna name a, I'm gonna name a couple just because your, your folks will go check 'em out and they're mind blowers. So I don't know if you've heard the Lord of the Spirits Podcast.
Lord of the Spirits.
Yeah. Lord of the Spirits podcast, two Eastern Orthodox scholars.
Ooh.
It's sort of mind blowing podcast. Okay. These guys, these guys are smart. Okay. But they're knowledge of antiquity and of the scripture, that sort of thing. They're fascinating to listen to. And then Michael Heiser, the Naked Bible Podcast. Have you listened to Michael Heiser?
No, I've not, but I will. Will.
Okay. Cool. I mean, hi. Yeah. Unbelievable.
Awesome. Love it. Awesome. John, thank you. You're, you're officially done. Thank you for going over time. This was great. Thank you so much. Yeah. Really?
Yeah. That was great, guys. Thank you.
Okay. John Eldridge.
John
Stinking Eldridge. Freaking Eldridge
Mean, this episode guys
Swish,
One of, it's one of those episodes you have to keep listening over and over again Yeah. To really, uh, let it kind of drop in. Yeah. The things that he was talking about.
Chris, I love that you pushed back on.
Yeah. I think, you know, I'm thinking about like hearing the voice of God, and I'm thinking in my head, I've never heard this like, audible voice, you know, like God from the mountain, you know? Yeah. Kind of speaking to me. And I think what he was able to do is kind of bring this other perspective. So, well, it's that it's not always this like voice, you know, coming from heaven, but, but God can speak to us in all these different ways. And so it's really, really interesting to sit through that and, and hear what he had to
Say. Would you say that you feel you have experienced, uh, the, gosh, I don't even know how to say this. The heart voice of God, the voice of God in the heart, I think, or, or do you kind of go, gosh, I don't know,
Language. Right. Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, so maybe depend on the day and how I feel. Right. And how I like quantify it with my language. Yeah. But yeah, maybe.
Yeah,
Sure. I think there are moments, um, that can maybe only be God mm-hmm.
Right. Well,
I think he talks about that too. Mm-hmm.
Heart. Like, and I think with, with John, I mean, I, I think I see, I would see scripture different in some ways than he does mm-hmm.
Right. Yeah. Which, yeah. He talks about the tree of life and the tree of knowledge and our, um, obsession of needing to know and how that comforts that really, uh, we think it does. We think that's what we, we are seeking when we ask in our, in communion with God, yeah, I want answers. But really, he's like, what if you rethought that listening to God's voice, God's voice would give you more life. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And I loved how you talked about not or about rejecting this religion thing without rejecting the reality of God.
Oh. You know, that's, if you're like, no,
Yeah. Uh, I have a lot, I mean, just in all honesty, I have many things that are like self-destructive behaviors in things that I do from small to big things. And I generally think that they're gonna help me out in my life. Life. Mm-hmm.
That's
True. Yes. But we don't want to use that language. No. Well, okay.
Yeah. Yeah. And, and he talks about the heart being good and growing up thinking the heart is deceitful. And so when you mm-hmm.
We would love to hear your comments and your thoughts and your questions and pushback on things. So, uh, we do not have all the answers. We're just trying to figure it out with you. So we're not doing this for you, we're doing this with you. So if you have thoughts or questions or pushback, please um, send that in. You can write like, do little dms in Yep. All the social mediums, minutes, 10 K minutes,
Instagram, TikTok, you can reach out. We'll have all those, uh, links down in the description.
Yeah. We would truly would love to have that. Cause we would then love to have conversations about the things that you're questioning and you're curious about because we're doing this with you. So if you wanna practice that, um, taking five minutes this week, then go for it.