10000 MINUTES

214: Fox & Rob On Life In and Out of Prison, Letting Go of Tomorrow's Worries, and Knowing God Is With Us in Our Struggles.

Episode Summary

Formerly incarcerated couple, Fox and Rob Rich (academy award-nominated documentary “Time”) share the incredible story of how desperation affected 21 years of their lives, what faith looked like in and out of prison, and how even in our biggest struggles, God is still with us. 
 Practice: Practice breathing this all day in the midst of struggle: 
Breathe In: In My Struggle, 
Breathe Out: God You’re Still Here

Episode Notes

Episode Summary:
Formerly incarcerated couple, Fox and Rob Rich (academy award-nominated documentary “Time”) share the incredible story of how desperation affected 21 years of their lives, what faith looked like in and out of prison, and how even in our biggest struggles, God is still with us. 


Practice: Practice breathing this all day in the midst of struggle: 
Breathe In: In My Struggle, 
Breathe Out: God You’re Still Here

If you’ve found this or another practice helpful, let us know at mail@10000minutes.com and we might include your story in a future episode!


Show Notes:
Rich Family Ministries: richfamilyministries.org 
Time: The Untold Story: https://foxandrob.com 
Time Documentary: https://foxandrob.com/film/ 

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Episode Transcription

We ended up facing 297 years in prison each. And, um, and when you are faced with that much trouble, you get a real clear understanding of about what it means to be still and have to trust God because you have no other options. You have no other way out. Um, and, and you don't know the way. Um, and sometimes I think that that is where we really get to bear witness to who God really is, is when we have no other options.

Welcome to 10,000 Minutes podcast. I wanted to try it. Try it. I can do it a little better.

Okay. Go for it.

Now I'm shy. The next one. Come on. Name me the next one. Come on. Hi everybody. Welcome to the 10,000 Minutes podcast. My name is Moy. And to my hot left. Ooh, if you are a regular, you know what that means? We

Have, I don't know what that means. This is awkward. Tim is, yeah. What's up Tim? Hour?

Tim, what's up? What's up? What's up? And then over the bridge we have Chris

Over the way. Hey guys.

Also known as Sea Train. So Sea Train. See where I put the bridge in? Yes. But anyways, take it away. Tim. . That was too much. Too much

Responsibility. No, that was,

It's a lot. Took 65 episodes to get to this spot. .

It made me feel uncomfortable. I'm never doing it again.

Please do that again. That was so good. Chris. You're next. Next week.

Cool. Great. Perfect.

Uh, hey everybody. Welcome. Mm-hmm. . We have a great episode we're about to jump into. We didn't even really know what we're about to jump into. Yeah. But I know it's gonna be great. Mm-hmm. . Um, we have Fox and Rob, so they have a, what is it on Amazon?

It's on Amazon. Amazon Prime. They have documentary called Time.

Time. Yes. And my family just watched it and it was wild. Mm-hmm. . And then this interviews, I'm just so intrigued about how this is gonna go. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , you guys just watched it.

We did. I I mean, it's an incredible story of kind of they're hardships, a mistake they made, and then how they like lived through it. The injustices in the system. Yeah. Their love and like, commitment to each other, how they raise kids through all of it. Yeah. Um, pretty incredible. Yes.

Yes. And more, Kip I mean, it really is a love story. It's

A love story. Yeah. And we say God is love all the time, but there are few moments I think where we're really witnessing it like love really did, um, carry both of them through. And if that doesn't restore hope Yeah. I mean, I don't know what does. Yeah. And a sucker for love story. So

, I told Kenzie about halfway through, I was like, I don't, I don't know if I would've stuck around like, like she did for him. Cuz it's crazy. It's, no, it's, I mean, she did and it was like unwavering.

Yeah. I'm, yes. There's just so much in there, like endurance and patience. Mm-hmm. and pivoting in life. Um, communication guys, it's just wild. It's a wild story. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And it, you can't help but feel like you're part of it in some way. Yeah. As you listen to it, so. Mm-hmm. , I'm excited.

So, uh, this is gonna be really great. Are there things in here that I'm sure, um, we'll agree and disagree with? I mean, if you look at their story and how it all works and what do we agree with, with how the incarceration system works and doesn't work? Right. I dunno if we'll get into that or not, but, um, it's just worth listening to and trying to figure out how do we learn more about love and God in the midst of all this stuff. Mm-hmm. . Right? So, um, they also have a book, uh, called Time, the Untold Story of the Love that held us together when incarceration kept us apart. It's a long title, but I think it's gonna, I think I get the gist. . I think

Both . I think it's somewhere.

Let, let's, let's dive into this. Um, and here we go.

Hey everyone, this is Moy just letting you know that we did not have interview footage with Fox and Rob because we actually caught them in the middle of their travels. And so the interview happened at an airport on a cell phone. But we do appreciate your flexibility and for sticking around to listen to this amazing conversation with Fox and Rob.

So you guys, we've got Fox and Rob on the, the podcast.

Excited

Guys. You are, you're in DC right now in the airport.

Yes.

Because why not? That's a perfect place to be for

Sure. , right?

Yeah. And

Please forgive us, but we, were not gonna miss this Five games.

I love us. You're doing great. I mean, you just jumped off the airplane to be in this, so I'm just exci. I'm more so excited for your neighbors, whoever's like, sitting around you .

Right? We

Called ourselves trying to get into a corner where they didn't have very many people. Oh

My gosh. I'm just, I'm excited. So when you talked about some of the things, I'm just, you know, you're always, we're always in airports and kinda listening to other people's conversations.

So ,

This is awesome. Will you guys welcome, thankful that you guys would jump and do this with us. So we are just curious about your story. So the 10,000 minutes, the whole idea of this podcast and what we do and why we do what we do is we're trying to figure out how do we join Jesus in the 10,000 minutes of our week. So there're 10,080 minutes in a week. You just got smarter . And 80, 80 of those minutes are in a gathering, a church gathering that people do, which is great. But there are 10,000 minutes until we gather again. And I'm amazing in those 80 minutes. But when it's in the 10,000 minutes, that's when people make me cuss and just . You know, I just, I see people really different. I see them through my own lenses. I don't see them through the lens of like, Jesus, how do I join you in seeing this person? Mm-hmm. . Um, I'm just not good at that. I'm good at being an awesome Christian, but I'm not great at actually walking with Jesus during the rest of my week. So we're just talking to people who know some stuff and we wanna learn with you and alongside you. That's, that's like our aim. So we would love to learn with you and learn from you. Mm-hmm. . And so we got to watch, uh, watch obviously the, the show, the, the movie called Time, the documentary called Time

Amazing. Yes. Amazing.

Uh, I, we watched it with my whole family. I know you did it too with your family. And so thank you for just being a part of that. And it was just profound and wild. Mm-hmm. . So, thank you. Um, thank

You.

Yeah. I mean, that's, that's, yeah. It's so fun to like, see these

Humans in front of us. Cause it's like . I, I feel like I, yeah. Watching your story, I feel like I'm, it's a part of me a little bit. It haunted me. So I'm excited to kind of walk with you through the years and kind of how it's shaped your view of God and yourself and others.

Can you guys just wrote a book, obviously, uh, and the book is actually called Time, the Untold Story of the Love that Held us together when in Incar Incarceration Kept us apart. Um, and that just came out, or it's coming out right? Yes,

Yes.

Yes. February

Of the seventh. Okay. So this will, this will be after that. So everybody go check out that book mm-hmm. . And you'll want to. So, um, everybody just heard a bit of your story, but would you just catch us up on, um, the past 20 years as a couple , just briefly. .

Ooh. Is this such a thing? Nope, there's not, there's not , but just lemme know when you're ready for us to go.

You go.

All right. All right. Well, for those of us who are listening on end for the first time and just becoming, uh, familiar with, uh, Fox and I, uh, collectively we are known as Fox and Rob. Uh, we are a formerly incarcerated couple who spent more than 21 years, uh, behind bars, uh, before receiving clemency in 2018. Uh, but our history, uh, actually takes us all the way back to 1990, uh, 1987, uh, where Fox and I, um, uh, were high school sweethearts. Mm-hmm. , uh, I was home visiting from, uh, some time, uh, away from, uh, leave while I was in the military. And, uh, was joined, uh, by Fox with, uh, her and a mutual friend of ours, uh, one of my church members. And, uh, I fell in love with, uh, Fox at first sight, and I spent the rest of the evening trying to convince her that she was equally in love with me.

Come on. Come on. . So, good. Preach. And, uh, uh, from that point, uh, I think I, I, I nailed it. , uh, because we spent the next 10 years from 87 to 97 in an on again, off again, uh, relationship with one another, uh, while I, uh, served, what, two, three duty stations, uh, in the, uh, United States Navy, uh, came home. Uh, Fox was wrapping up with, uh, some of her, uh, uh, collegiate studies. Uh, I joined her there at, uh, gremlin State University in the early nineties, uh, by, uh, the late nineties at being 1997, I guess. Uh, I was tired of chasing her at that point. And, um, as the old okay, man would do, I hit over the head with a log and drug her back to the case . I love that. I told her, you were gonna marry me. Love that. I believe that. And she says, when tonight? And I said, yes tonight, . The next morning we took off to a small chapel in Kissimee Saint Cloud Florida, uh, where we got married, exchanged our Nupt wolves. We spent the, uh, rest of the evening in, uh, what was then known as Pleasure Island , uh, one of the, uh, Disney properties. And, uh, we bungees jumped

Properties coming. I just, all I heard was Pleasure Island. I'm like, that makes sense. I'm seeing that movie.

Right. So we, uh, spent the, uh, the rest of that evening, uh, as I mentioned at, uh, pleasure Island, uh, where we bungee jumped in order to, uh, consummate our marriage. Oh my God. Got the documented footage of it.

Wait. Of the bungee jump. Yes. Okay. Good. I didn't know if you're talking Pleasure Island or the

That, too, but you can't. That

Is right, right. You guys, I'm, I'm thinking about schedule a trip to Pleasure Island right now with my wife, . My goodness. And I'm not talking about bungee jumping. Ok. Keep going.

. And, um, so once that was all overall, we headed back to, uh, to our hometown of, uh, Shreveport to, uh, begin what would, uh, become the beginning of our lives. Uh, we went back home. Uh, we bought a house, uh, that would become our, uh, small family's home between Fox and I. We had three children, uh, mine, hers and ours. Uh, and from there we also started a, uh, a small business, which is, uh, which was a, um, then it was the original, uh, it was culture, the original hip hop, uh, and original hip hop clothing shop, uh, that opened back in, uh, back in 1997. Um, we thought that we were off to an amazing start and everything that could have went wrong went wrong. Mm-hmm. Uh, we bought a house that, uh, we thought was, uh, was our dream home, uh, only to find out later that the, uh, foundation was cracked and all of the, uh, the, uh, carpet that we had put in it, the paint that we had put on the wall, one bad storm, the roof came caving in. Uh, our carpet was destroyed, our paint was destroyed. man, uh, we were literally underwater . Um, and then the, uh, business that we started, we thought we had the ideal location, but we violated every, uh, major rule. Perfect. Uh, when it comes to starting a, a good business, and that is location, location, location. We actually put a hiphop clothing store in an industrial area. Mm-hmm. . And, uh, boy, you should have saw us in the earlier days trying to flag down traffic to get people to stop. I didn't even know existence . Wow. And, um, I

Saw one of those t t-shirts, by the way, in, in the movie, and I'm like, I want one of those . I was totally jealous. Ok. Continue.

And if nothing else, uh, bad could have happened in the moment. Uh, our third oldest son, uh, took ill, uh, with an undiagnosed, uh, ailment. And, uh, it's in us spiraling. Uh, and when most people are in, um, times of desperation, they do desperate things. Uh, in our efforts to regain financial solvency, uh, we attempted to, uh, rob a bank and found out that that was, uh, actually not the right thing to do. Uh, everything again, that could have went wrong, went wrong. Uh, the robbery was botched. Uh, we were arrested, tried and convicted, and ultimately sentenced, uh, to 60 years, 45 years and seven, seven and five years respectively. Between myself, uh, our, um, co-defendant, Ontario Smith, and, uh, Fox, of course. And we spent the next 21 years and four days of our lives from that day in September 16th, 1997, uh, fighting to reunite our families.

Wow. Okay. Well, this has been great to have you guys on here. This

Has been, that's a mic drop on me, right, .

Totally. Back to the Barry White comment, fox. We got to see a lot of, uh, just a bit of your journey mm-hmm. through walking through crazy and walking with Jesus in the midst of that. And I've got plenty of questions there for you and for Rob. You were walking through this whole thing as well, and we didn't get to see as much of your walking in the midst of all this. What did you learn? How did you walk with Jesus in the midst of this? Were you like, Jesus, where are you? What are you doing? Um, and we, we are, we are trying to not be very Christian on this podcast. We would rather be honest than like, religious stupid. Yeah. So we don't need any of that crap. It's more like, what, what does that look like to actually walk with Jesus in the midst of this? Mm-hmm. , what

Questions for me, if, if I may start. For me, it was about when you are at your lowest moment. Um, I, I've heard people say that the good thing about being at the lowest point that you can be in life is that there's nowhere else to go but up. Mm-hmm. And so when you hit rock bottom, it is a real revelation about what it means to trust God and get to know God. Um, when you know that, um, Rob and I, when we entered into the criminal justice system, um, we both were college educated and we thought that everything that no matter what you had done, that whatever time you got in the criminal justice system, you got what you deserved. Right. We thought that the justice system was just, and it was not until we were directly impacted that we said, uhoh, oh, this is what this looks like, .

Oh, you mean, it's not just over here. Uh, and so for us, it was about when you are facing, cuz we ended up facing 297 years in prison each. And, um, and when you are faced with that much trouble, you get a real clear understanding of about what it means to be still and have to trust God because you have no other options. You have no other way out. Um, and, and you don't know the way. Um, and sometimes I think that that is where we really get to bear witness to who God really is, is when we have no other options. And, um, for me, that was when I was on suicide watch. Hmm. Having been arrested and, um, being pregnant and the, um, warden telling the jailer to put me on solitary confinement because he thought I was gonna try and take my own life because we were in so much trouble.

And so it was a moment of me really having to decide whether I was better off alive or dead. Right. Um, and in that moment is when I talk about in the book time, um, the untold story is that in that moment is when I heard, um, my, my own heartbeat. And, and in hearing my own heartbeat, I came to understand that I'm not the reason why I'm here. That there is a power that is operating that is bigger than me, and that is sustaining my life force. So if I'm still here, it's for a reason and I'm gonna see this through and see what God has for me. On the other side, I'm not giving up on my life because God is not giving up on me. And as funny as it would end up being, they say God has an, a funny sense of humor.

A couple of weeks later, I go to my first OB g Yn appointment through the jail and through the jail system. And I am at, in the prison ward of the hospital, the ob g y n doctor comes in, gives me my first ultrasound, and what happens, handcuffs and shackles, an arm guard outside an arm guard on the side of me, the doctor moves over my shackles to put the, the sonogram on my tummy and two heads pop up. Oh my gosh. Oh, wow. So here I am, my face in 297 years, and I knew I was pregnant, but Lord, him mercy, I didn't even know having twins was possible for me. Right. So all I could do was break out in this loud cry and laughter at saying, God, that was the proof that I needed that, um, that if you can give me something so special, so amazing at the lowest point of my life, then I know that it's a sign for me that you got me. And, and that we are gonna get through this.

Wow. Wow. And, um, I guess for me it was much of, uh, much of the same. And, um, I mean, when you step foot in, um, what is what is known as, uh, one of America's, uh, bloodiest pen, uh, penitentiaries, and that being, uh, Angola state penitentiary talking about 18,000 sprawling acres with more than 6,000 men that are there, and 80% of them are serving natural life sentences. And the other 25 per, uh, 20% of them are serving on average 80 years worth of practical life, uh, inside of, uh, inside of prison walls. Uh, the place is surrounded by three quarters of, uh, the Mississippi River, and there is a 21, uh, mile whiny road that gets down into this space. And boy, when I tell you that you would have to pump daylight into this place, uh, was really, uh, no stretch of the imagination.

Yeah. And it is one of those moments that like Jesus on the crossbo, it'll make you say, God, if you could pass this bitter cup. Right. Believe me, you, uh, Tim . I was like, man, pass the cup. . Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, but it was in that moment that, uh, you know, they say that, uh, situations and circumstances do not define the man. Uh, do not make the man, but they define to him who he actually is. And it was, they revealed Yeah. They revealed to who you actually are. And it was in that moment that it was revealed to me who I was. And it was just that I was a subject of God that was being tested, uh, in an effort to be able to show the magic of what God is able to do speak for, uh, when you find yourself in the lowest of moments. Because it is, it is inside of, uh, the darkest of spaces that I think that God does his magic, uh, perform the best works.

Yeah.

Greatest of, uh, of, of, uh, of miracles. Um, and with that being said, it, uh, it led me to a, um, a course that I took, uh, as a prerequisite to, uh, my seminary studies. And it was a course called Experiencing God. And the, uh, main objective with, uh, experiencing God was about finding where you could identify that God was working and join him in his work. And it was there that I realized that. But those desolate souls that were inside of Ola, you're talking about men that had, uh, you know, no hope whatsoever. I'm talking about when you look into the eyes of men and you see that there's nothing there, uh, it makes you realize that, man, either I'm gonna join you there. Yeah. I need to figure out a way to, to inspire, motivate, and bring something back into those eyes, man.

Because, uh, again, like I said, that's a scary place to be. Um, so it was there that, uh, that my ministry started even inside of, uh, inside of Prison Walls through the, uh, thank God for the, uh, new Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary who had an extension center, uh, in Ang. And they were offering, uh, two year and four year degrees, uh, for men willing to study, uh, in pastoral ministry and, uh, Christian counseling. Uh, so I was able to get my degree there and much of what I learned through the program helped me navigate, uh, you know, the vows of prison.

Wow. So in, in the beginning. I mean, that's, that's 20 years and change 21 years. That's right. That's what I said. 24 days, one years and change . Um, and, and that every day of change is, you know, every day of that one year is crazy. So I I, I apologize even for not getting it right. Cause I know that that's not like, like, oh, it's just 2020 something

like

You actually said. Some amount of years in four days, you's 21 years in four days. It's no joke every single day. I, I have a, I have a, I have a, a nephew who's in prison right now, and I just gotta spend some time at San Quentin, um, a month ago. And I just, just, these guys, they're just such beautiful humans. But that 21 years in change, there's a lot of time in there. A lot of questions. That's, that's right. A lot of struggling in those moments. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Um, what were some of the moments of like, Nope, God, this is, I'm dying here. I'm dying here. Mm-hmm. And what, what, what'd you see in him? Or where were moments where like, Nope, I don't see him mm-hmm. Because I, you know, I don't know when you started those courses, but can you give a little bit on that? Yeah. Just the, the not so awesome and beautiful part.

I started the, uh, courses early on and then, you know, you have this, uh, kind of way of, uh, that I think that when we are, uh, infants, uh, in our studies of, uh, you know, of the miracles of God, I think that we have this thing that we hopeful, uh, that it's more of like a rewarding kind of punishment type of situation. Right. So we do good, and then we hope that God does, uh, will do good in return. Uh, then I got to, uh, my first, um, probably about the first year and a half in when, uh, the, uh, when the Louisiana Supreme Court, um, uh, denied my, uh, my writ and hence making my, uh, conviction finals. And I was like, oh God, you know, uh, where are you ? Where are thou? Yeah. You know, uh, have you, have you, you know, abandoned me here or what, you know?

And it's that moment, I guess, where you only see one set of footprints in the sand. Yeah. And then you're walking along the way and you're like, thinking that these are actually your footprints. And, you know, you can kinda, uh, what I call, uh, as an acronym, uh, your ego steps in, and it's when you ease God out, and in the moments that you ease God out, you have a tendency to wanna do everything, uh, even, you know, curse God, you know, and be like, man, what the hell are you? I'm, I'm suffering here. I'm dying here. Uh, I need some, uh, I need to be resuscitated . Yeah. Um, and then, you know, there was still other moments because I went and I said, well, I got another avenue through the court. I can go back through it, maybe file to the federal court only to get and file to the federal court and find out that the lawyer who I had, uh, was a rookie attorney, uh, I was his second, uh, criminal trial.

And, uh, as a result of it, he just was not, um, prepared to, uh, to address, uh, the concerns that were before the court. And hence, uh, I found out that, uh, I was totally barred, uh, time barred from, uh, from federal, uh, review at that point. So it was, again, at that moment I'm like, okay, God, where are you? Are you not here? Right. Am I here all alone? Right. And, you know, this thing went on for, I'm talking about many years, many, many years. I'm talking about denial after denial, after denial. And, um, like I said, it, it, it really takes you in those moments, the way you gerd up. And you have to, you know, you're like, uh, you're like, job in that moment, man, you, you are afflicted. I've, I've lost my family. Uh, uh, you know, of course. Uh, I've, I've lost my kids.

I've socially orphaned them. And, you know, and then it was in the moment when you realize that you have managed, uh, that all of these things have actually taken place, um, you know, not to, not to the fault of God, but to your own actions. And then it's in that moment, I think, where you start to realize that, okay, this is, uh, this is definitely a test and it's a test that I gotta be up for. Yeah. And I think it was in those moments where I really started to kind of find meaning in my suffering. Uh, Fox sent me a book one time, it was probably one of the first books that she, it was the first book. It was, uh, by Victor Frankel, and the book was entitled, uh, man Search For Meaning. Yep. And, uh, he was basically, uh, thinking of, uh, concentration, concentration camp and a concentration camp.

Yep. And, um, was, you know, on a whole nother side of the world, but experiencing, uh, similar to what I was experiencing, uh, experiencing, uh, in Ang, I said, well, man, if this guy can tap in and get through it, you know, then surely I can tap in and get through it. Yeah. Uh, so it was in those moments, I think, uh, Tim, that, um, my ancestors spoke to me, uh, the ancestors that had overcome over 400 years of slavery in America. Mm-hmm. And it was in that moment that I realized that the DNA a that ran through them also ran through me. And if they could overcome 400 years of chattel slavery, then surely I could overcome Wow. 60 years in Angola state penitentiary through mass, under mass incarceration.

Wow.

So today, when something goes wrong, so I, I, I live with, uh, an incurable cancer. That's what I, I walk with every day. It's, you know, one of those things that, you know, you get through and people always go, but what about like today? Like, when something goes wrong today, are you like, ah, no problem, I'm fine. I'm, I'm, I got, you know, I wrote, I write the summer wrist every day. I woke up, I'm just grateful I woke up. But little things like just wreck me. Hmm. That, that don't need to, I'm like, that was so stupid. I, how did I just get fully thrown off of this little thing when I'm, I woke up again today, like I'm a alive hanging out with you cool people today, . Um, and there are these little reminders all day. I'm like, oh gosh, Tim, you don't have to worry about that. So now, today, for both of you, when you're like, we went through all this craziness and we walked with Jesus in the midst of it, and he taught us so much, but yet today as you guys were getting off that plane, when something happened that was so stupid that you're like, gosh, I, that just threw you out, out of your awareness of like, I'm thankful for today. How do you guys get through that?

We have a family Monte Tim that says, if it's not 297 years, it's nothing.

It's

Nothing. It's nothing. We have seen our worst days. That's right. And moved past them. And as long as we got our health and our strength, we got everything we need to make it. That's right. You

Know, and Tim, you spoke a word when you, uh, mentioned, uh, your own health challenges. And truth be told, you know, it's, it's, um, many people have, uh, their own version of suffering. Right. Uh, it can be a bad relationship, it can be a dead end job. It can be health concerns, it can be financial, um, you know, uh, situations. It can be a number of different things. But it is, again, just in those moments where we have to realize that this is not, uh, a bad thing that is happening with us at that moment. It is more so an opportunity, uh, for us to be able to demonstrate, uh, what is possible when we, uh, when we take our challenges head on

And trust God. And that for us, was the most important part about writing this book and being able to share, you know, the documentary being nominated for an Oscar. Right. Even coming straight outta prison and having an opportunity to walk the red carpet. It was all van glorious, but if we were not able to tell, um, the real struggles that we went through Yeah. Um, and, and the miracles that showed how God showed up for us, then for us, it was all for not. And so for Baker Books, um, publishing company to see our faith walk and give us a chance to share that with people. And as we say over and over again, our issue of blood was incarceration. But everybody is dealing with their own. Totally. And so we are hopeful that as people, um, pick up time, the book, the Untold Story, that they will just be able to use our story, uh, as a testament in their own lives, that if God can do it for us.

Yes. It took 21 years. And one of those things on that journey, probably like you, Tim, that we realized is that, um, I can't worry about tomorrow. You know, it, it was at different moments for me that I would find myself having me and the boys living for the day. When Rob came home. Everything was when he comes home, come on. When, when, when, when he comes home all about tomorrow. And then I had to say, no, I don't even know if I may be blessed to get there, come. But what I do know is that I have right now, and what am I gonna do right now? I'm gonna go visit and I'm gonna be in this moment right here, right now, because no matter where we are, we are family and God is giving us this moment. So, um, it was a challenge trying not to look at the future moments and really just be grateful and present in the moment that we had right now. And what that look like. That's

Right. Mm. Cause it's in those moments that you come to the realization that you've experienced enough yesterday's, you've experienced enough yesterday's to know that tomorrow will come. So enjoy the day, enjoy the day that you've been given. So it's like every day we, we, you know, we enter it, we exit it knowing that, oh man, this is, this has been one beautiful day. When they say, um, this is, um, this is the

Day. This is the day that the Lord has made. Let us rejoice and be glad

In it. Come on.

I love that. I love that. That's so good. I think we should just take an offering right now and be done . That's kinda what I'm feeling right now.

Or order a book, ,

Come on. Come on. Oh yes. Probably. Duh. That we, we'll, we'll have said that a hundred times. Everybody, please go do that. Please do that. And we'll, we'll put that in the show notes as well. What did you guys need most in those hard years? Yeah,

I think the thing that just sustained us most, um, was one, remembering that everything we needed, we already had, when Robert and I made a decision that fatal decision to, um, regain financial solvency by taking something, um, it immediately afterwards it was realized to us, oh my God. It, it wasn't the money. Everything we needed, we already had, we had each other. And as long as we had our health and our strength and our love, everything else in this life that we wanted to a achieve, you know, we get so lost on this American dream syndrome stuff. Yes. Right? Yes. The, all the stuff and, and all of the stuff, it fades away. But it is God's love that goes eternally. And we had that and we gave it up trying to get the American dream junk. And, um, and we paid dearly for it. That's

Right. And I probably said it best at the, uh, close of time, uh, the documentary when I said that love is on life's only valid expression. And when you understand that, even though it's an acronym, and it sounds cute and all that other stuff, but truthfully, uh, love is all we need. And when we have love, we realize that love conquers off. Cause

God is love and love is God.

I'm about. That makes all the mathematical sense in the world . And to let you know that, you know, God's love has the power, uh, to, to, you know, eradicate, uh, life sentences. It has the power to bring down our brick walls and uh, and steal gates and arm guards and the whole nine yards. I mean, we just, we just have to tap in. You know, uh, I think Fox, uh, probably says it better than me when she says, uh, love is the most divine chemical in the universe and it dissolves everything that is not of itself.

Hmm. Come on, . Wow. We're taking a second offering right now. , that is so

Second book,

That's what people buy the books by the book. Think there's gonna be a bunch more of these things in every single chapter. . It is, um, uh, a few, few more quick questions. So Fox, uh, in the Docdocumentary, um, there's a moment when you just, you're just being kind and just trying to practice kindness, partly cuz you're like, please give me what I need because I, if I'm lame to you, then you're gonna kick me and not give me what I want. I mean, you're just, it was just so heartbreaking to listen to you. Um, but there was a moment when there was the woman that, you know, as in the South, would say, God bless her soul, that she just was like, she wouldn't even make the call that you're asking for. And she, in a sense was almost, um, dehumanizing you.

Mm.

It, it just intentionally or unintentionally she was just kind of saying, well, th this lady, you know, whether she was saying, well, they got what they got and that they're gonna get whatever I give them, um, it just, it was such a clear view of how we dehumanize people. Mm-hmm. . And I guess part of it is like, what did you learn in the midst of that and how do you do that with other people? And what's the practice as we can see? How do we see people the way that God sees people, whether they're incarcerated or not, they're lame to us. What'd you learn?

When I was in prison, it was probably maybe my first couple of nights in prison. And there was a young lady who was my bunkmate that was a former, that she was a former crack addict out of New Orleans, and, uh, had spent years as she had shared with me, uh, as a, a crack addict. And, um, so one day we were talking and she says to me, baby, lemme tell you something. Two mountains may never meet, but two people will. And I said, Ooh, ouch. It was the realest truth I have ever heard. And, and, and knowing how God works for me, I always try to treat people like they're gonna be the doorkeeper for the next door that God has me walk through no matter what kind of day I'm having. I to remember, cuz you, like you said, 80 minutes I'm in church.

Yeah. But the mother 10,000 minutes Yeah. Is a whole nother story. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . And so I strive to remember as I'm encountering other human, but beings other, um, children of God that, um, two mountains may never meet, but two people will. And when this person encounters me again, when my name comes up, when someone says that they ran into me, what will they have to say about me? And I want it to be something good. I don't always make it to him. No doubt about that. Of course, of course. Me, they say give it the old college try every day. I make sure that I give it the old college try. Um, I believe in, in building bridges, um, because I know that it, our relationships to one another, that's what God wants for us. Right. Because if that was the case, it would've just been, Adam wouldn't have been the need for Eve and all the children, you know, our relationships is what God's wants for us. And so we have to value those and treat those and each other, um, as the children of God that we are when we're on this journey together. So that was probably my biggest lesson, is, uh, how I treat other people. It's just that two mountains may never meet, but two people will baby. So you better be mindful about how you treat people, cuz you gonna see 'em again. And the worse you treat 'em, the more likely you are to see him again.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I love

That. So can you imagine in that documentary when in small town Louisiana, all those people came back saying, cha, you know, I heard your name on that documentary, .

Of course.

Oh my God.

I love that. I love that Rob. Is there practiced that you have that, that you know, cuz none of us are perfect. Just like Fox just said, it's like there's, there's moments that somebody says something and you're like, okay, you have just triggered the, the wrath of me, you know, ,

. Um,

But it's in those moments that we're, we're trying to figure out as, as Jesus people, how do we go, okay, Jesus, help me actually represent you in this moment when now I'm so pissed off at this person. . So what, what, what's the practice? What's the like, the rethinking? So repent means to rethink our thinking. Mm-hmm. , um, what, what are the moments or little triggers or the practices that you guys are doing that kind of help us see people like Jesus actually might invite us to see people?

Damn, I'm gonna say one, this is not even a fair question cuz this brother is one of the most Zen people I have ever met in my life. And he actually annoys me sometimes because he's totally old busk. You know, I'd be like, no, you better come on and get upset with me. . That

Is awesome.

It would, um, probably be, um, uh, scripture I think, uh, says it best when it says that I have learned that whatsoever state I be in that wish to be content. And it takes a journey to get you to that particular point. Um, there was a, uh, program that I took while I was incarcerated, uh, by, it was, uh, a program that was implemented by, uh, NFL Great, uh, Jim Brown. It's called the, uh, America Can Program. And it's a program for, uh, for social change, uh, that he created in order to address a lot of the, uh, riots that were happening in la uh, shortly after the, uh, Rodney King, uh, incident that took place there. Um, but when faced with, uh, with difficulties and things like that, he has a, a process that, uh, that we would go through. And that process is, is that first and foremost you have to eliminate the negatives.

Secondly, you have to establish the fact. And then once you establish the facts, you then choose your best options. Once you get to a point that you can actually eliminate the negative, uh, whoever it is that's getting in your face, whatever it is that's causing the problems, whatever that is, just take the moment in order to eliminate the negative. Once you're able to establish the facts, when you're in the moment of establishing the facts, it's in that moment, I think that you reach your point of empathy. Not sympathy, but empathy because it allows you to put yourself in the shoes of the other person. Uh, when you're able to then put yourself in the shoes of the other person, it's in that moment that understanding starts to come with you. And then you are usually able to address it in the best possible light at that point because you, you've done all of the, uh, you've done the exercise to get you to that point, you know? And, uh, so, you know, in life, you know, we don't, we don't really, uh, face problems and, uh, what we do, you know, for us, you know, it's just an exercise. Problems are when you have no, uh, no ending, uh, in, in my no solutions to 'em. But if you understand the formula, the formula will always get you the right answer. So it's just an exercise.

How, how do you, how do you eliminate the negative? Is that like internally? I mean, cuz ne you know, you, you were just in prison, right? There's mm-hmm. , there's negative everywhere. Yes, yes. Mm-hmm. . So you certain thing, your roommate, you can't eliminate your roommate unless you'll be in there for many more years. Right? Right. . So it's like, what's that look like when negative is just there in your face? Mm-hmm. So is that like an internal thing, where're like Jesus, I was that I, I need to see this in a different light. It's not

So much that he is the problem as much as it is that the spirit that is working inside of him, that is the problem. Okay. So whatever that is, the moment that happens for me is that okay, this is not even about me. This is, this is something, something not about me. It's not something about this brother that, uh, that I'm, I'm facing, uh, in, in this moment or nothing of the sort. But it's in those moments, like Fox may mention, when she identified that this young lady was a former crack addict, uh, very seldom do you encounter people, especially in those types of places, uh, that you don't come to the conclusion real fast that this person has obviously had a trying life, a challenging life. Mm-hmm. . Um, so in those moments you realize that, you know, this, this person is obviously having, uh, uh, has had a challenging life and is obviously in this moment having a challenging time trying to, um, to bridge the gap between, um, anger and, um, and, you know, the resolve of it. You know, so it's, uh, it's about managing all of that. And a lot of times, like you said, uh, if you just slow down enough and not, uh, get into a reactionary mode, I think more times than not, when most people are faced with challenges, we automatically start thinking of some type of reaction or response that we should be having in the moment. And a lot of times the response is to do nothing at all.

Yeah. Mm.

Well said baby,

That's so good. . Love it. So the offering, the third offering is to go by the book people. That's what I'm saying. Cause this is getting uncomfortable with number one. They're making out basically in, in airport on our podcast. And that's okay. You guys can spend that time at Pleasure Island. I'd be like, that's anywhere we are. That okay? This is safe for the whole family. My goodness. Yeah. Family friendly . Um, you guys, this is so good and thank you for your time. We're not done yet. We've got a quick question for you because it's, we we like to laugh you guys, there's so much here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So people please go by their book. Um, and also you guys have a whole ministry, right? It is, is it Fox and Rob?

It is Rich Family Ministries Ministries Rich Family ministries.org. Rich,

Rich Family ministries.org. P people please go check that out and please go by their book. Um, are there ways, other ways we can support you just as humans?

Uh, I think prayer always works. Um, for us right now, we are on a mission team to get this book into the hand of as many incarcerated souls as we can. Okay. Yeah. Um, we know that what our family learned on this 21 year journey, um, for Rob and I both to be incarcerated, raised six sons and, um, none of them have been incarcerated. So we were able to break the generational curses as well as, you know, not are they just amazing young men? Um, five have been to college, one is a doctor, um, one is the director of operations on Capitol Hill for one of our congressmen at 23 years old. Um, two of them are married, we have no grandchildren yet. Um, so just, they're all doing really exceptional things. And um, one is a Somali, yay. We didn't even know what that word was until he became one .

Yeah.

He was like, oh yeah, my son's one of those too. .

Yeah, yeah,

Yeah. We got that in the family.

I love, yeah, I love beer .

Just kidding. And so we're just, um, you know, um, thanking God in advance for being able to bless people with this work so that it can continue to grow. And I think that by restoring our families is how we reduce crime in our country. Mm-hmm. , um, building solid foundations built upon love and God, um, that can really take us forth and build, you know, build a world, um, the way that we really wanna see it on those principles. So that's what we're trusting God for right now. Mm-hmm. . Yeah.

You guys, you are beautiful. Yeah. You are so beautiful. Yeah. It's just such a joy to have this conversation. My wife is like jealous. She wanted to be a part of this. I'm like, well, you have to

Listen to it. Well, listen, if you guys find yourselves down in New Orleans, you give us a call.

Okay. Dunn. And if you're in Nashville, you give us a call. Yes. We'll take you at we'll som eggs.

Well, look, the dentist is, uh, he graduated from Meharry. He, he and his girlfriend. Mm-hmm. . She is now at Harvard Imperial Donville School and he is finishing up his residency in, um, orthodontics at Indiana University. And they are actually planning to make Nashville their home when she, she has, she'll have one year left. He graduates in July. . She has one year left. Perfect. We'll be in Nashville to say all of that. So you save us a beer cuz that's my favorite.

Yes.

We'll, so with wine and all that, it'll be it's our treat. My treat.

Yes it did. Yes,

It indeed easy. Um, okay, so this is a quick, quick round, you guys, this is quick round. This isn't, you can't think about this. This is just, you give your answer right away, okay? Mm-hmm. . And I can't wait to see the faces of the people around you when you give these answers. Okay. First thing you do in the morning, go

Fix coffee. . Why kiss Rob? Yeah.

Yeah. I kiss Fox

.

Oh gosh. I

Love it. Gold. Once again, people go by the book. Yes. So good. Okay. Pet peeves. I know you don't have any, but if you did

, I do have a pet peeve. It's how slow Bobby is. Every time we get ready to go somewhere, I'm like dragging him everywhere. I'm like, if you don't come home.

And mine would be just the opposite. I hate how, uh, how erratic. She's sometimes . I'm like, would you just slow down? World's not going anywhere.

Oh my my gosh. Love, love it. A good balance. Pleasure Island . No, 2.0. Ok, here we go. Uh, childhood nicknames.

Muffy, Jos .

Preach. Come again.

Muffy Jowls

And preach. I

Don't know, we should

Muffy j

.

My family called me Muffy Jos cuz my jaws are so fat. Oh,

. Oh, I was a dance pet name for

. Oh my gosh. And Rob, yours is

. It was, uh, one day I got, uh, all dressed up, uh, for Easter Sunday and uh, I walked outside and the minute I walked outside, my uncle looked at me, he said, God damn appreciate . Oh my. Love that.

I love that. That is so great. Okay. Something you're currently celebrating.

Oh my goodness. That I am, uh, about to be the state representative for, for the most powerful house district in the state of Louisiana on February the 18th. That is a former incarcerated woman. God has restored me to my dream. And as of yesterday, the senator, the US congressman, three council members have all endorsed my candidacy. Ooh,

That is so great. We celebrate with you. That is so great, guys. Amazing.

Amazing . Come on.

Come on. That is awesome. Come on. Well, okay, we'll move on. Hidden talent, both of you.

Ooh, hidden

Talent. Let's go. G-rated. I like to sing G-rated.

I like to sing even though I'm not good at it. That that is probably consider that my hidden talent.

You call that a hidden talent.

What say

Hidden talent. Rob, you got, what do you got?

Loving Fox.

Aw

. Oh my gosh. He's

Pretty good at that. You're

Not

The right answer. Yeah.

You don't have a hidden talent,

Ron. Oh yeah. Love and Pop . But there there's my, there's something behind that. I I I've come to realize that, uh, again, it says that relationships are much like bank accounts and the big objective is, is much like your bank account. The objective is to place far more deposits than withdrawals that you make. Yeah. So every chance that I get, I put, I try to put my spare change in there so that when I do make those little, uh, petty cash withdrawals, then it don't matter much

. So every chance

I have a chance to tell this lady that I love her or take the opportunity to say that I love her. I know little change goes a long way,

. I love it.

Gosh.

So good. Okay, last one is bucket list. You guys have any bucket list items? Um, yes.

We wanna be, we are prospective Nobel Peace Prize winners. Tim, we plan to do so much work in this world to undo mass incarceration that somebody's gonna write to Switzerland and tell them that we deserve the Nobel Peace Prize.

And if so, we would be the seventh couple to ever receive the, uh, the honors.

Wow. Wow.

Seven number of perfection. They're waiting on us too. Come

On

.

Everybody go by the book. And if you are in charge of the Nobel Peace Prize and you're listening to this, please make this happen.

. Yes. Amazing.

You guys. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. What a joy to have you on this today. And for our listeners to be encouraged by you Fox and Rob, Fox and Rob, I mean offerings I could've taken 94 offerings amazing. And we would've, so I I I don't really, I wish we had another two hours just to talk through this Yeah. And figure out what we learned. Uh, what'd you guys hear?

I like the angle that the conversation went. I think we could have gone a thousand different places in this, in this conversation because there's so much there. Yeah. And I think like really leaning into like what they've learned and like when God has been present and, and when they haven't felt them, and like how they've, um, how they've lived through this crazy Yeah. You know, ordeal, um, together how their love is kind of like, gosh, they're, it, it's pretty incredible.

Um, you guys, if you, if you were, if you were just listening on the podcast and you weren't watching Yeah. The video , they were basically making out the whole time. Oh

Yeah. Sharing the, sharing the AirPod about Yeah.

They're in love. They're they were

In love. Yeah, they are. It's really incredible.

I loved the 200 and whatever years line. Yeah. Yeah. If it's another,

It's not that sentence. It's Yep.

It's so funny. Yeah. I got catchphrases, that's for sure.

But even in life, like each of us have things that we've gone through that have just sucked mm-hmm. . And, um, and if you haven't, my dad always says, wait a week, it's coming . But it's that, that thing of, okay, I've gone through this, we've made it through this, um, we can do this, we can get through this. Mm-hmm. , I just think their posture and life is really, is so powerful because they've gone through so much crap mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . And you know, it's back to the idea that we're always trying to figure out how do we get around going through hard things, right. When you've got this example of these people who are now, I don't know, whatever she is to the state of Louisiana, . Right. Um, that are these beautiful representers of g the way of Jesus and not a super christiany way. Mm-hmm. , they're just beautiful mm-hmm. , but it's only through the crap and the stuff they've gone through that's like invited them into this new reality.

Yeah. And they, it seems like they've really touched compassion. Like they went through this incredible two decades journey, um, probably needing a lot of compassion to just come out of it and be like, I know what it is to need help as an incarcerated family, so let's go do that. Let's continue the story instead of, instead of trying to maybe hope it goes away and never really happened. Yeah. And we all have those moments. We've done something we just don't want anyone to ever know about. And it's just done. It's in the past. Yeah. But they're like, no, it's all in the light. And we did some things and some things were redeemed and some things turned around and now we want other families to know that they're not alone. Yeah. That it's not the end. And that we understand where you are. So their story is about compassion for each other in the lowest of their moments.

And for people who feel they're at their lowest right now. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . And that was, that was the part that I was like, wow. We walk around sometimes not with our posture, hoping to be compassionate to the stories people bring us mm-hmm. and they're like, everyone has a story. Yeah. Knowing that, that, I don't know what it is to experience, but they have experienced, but they're like, it doesn't matter. You have your story. Yeah. You have your struggle. I'm not gonna minimize it compared to mine. We all need Yeah. To be compassionate. So good for the heart,

The empathy, how he was just deciphering between comp even like, uh, sympathy, empathy. I mean, it's cliche, but it's like it was real in that guy's story.

Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Being present with people. Mm-hmm. .

No. So, so good. They're

Great.

Um, yeah. I want to have dinner with them.

I really hope they come. I really, and if you guys go on tour and you go to New Orleans, , I will be a roadie. I'll be whatever I have to do for that one night, Justin, go hang out. They just seem like they're, they welcome you. Yeah. You know, a per a, a a couple who might not be welcome to other places because of their history. Yes. They welcome everyone and you can tell mm-hmm. and they're like, you're here right now, let's get to know you. Mm-hmm. , like those things heal those kind of postures heal people. And so I'm really hopeful that they continue to do amazing work in, in their ministry and what they're doing. Some of the truths that are present in this conversation is that you truly aren't ever alone and in your lowest, God truly does still love you. Like love is still present. And and hopefully we can be better at, um, reminding each other of that as we struggle alongside each other. Yeah. Hmm. So it doesn't feel, um, as low as those moments that, you know, box felt Yeah. Where she was like, maybe this is it. Like I just don't want to Yeah. Yeah. But what if we could practice being better at reminding each other that God is still present in our story. Yeah. Even when it doesn't feel like it.

Yeah. Thank you everybody. Thank you for listening to this podcast. If you've made it this far, you are our new best friend, um, . And if we can support you, please let us know how we can encourage you, um, what you need. Um, like, and subscribe to this and please share this with people. That would be epic. And go buy their book. Yes. Or send us some pe to some people. If I could speak English. I we need support cuz Tim needs some English lessons. this what a long day. Yeah.

We can move the budget around. We'll look at it .

Okay. Bye you guys.