10000 MINUTES

205: Nicole Zasowski on Chronic Loss, Brain Adaptation and Cultivating Joy

Episode Summary

Therapist and author of “What If It’s Wonderful?” Nicole Zasowski shares how 10 years of chronic loss shaped her view of joy, the way our brains adapt to joy and how we can cultivate it in every season. Tangents included: Bald monsters… Practice: Pause and Cultivate Joy by celebrating something today.

Episode Notes

The 10000 MINUTES Podcast is a weekly deep dive into the adventures and struggles of living out our daily lives WITH Jesus, not for Him. Also, we like to laugh. A lot. Maybe too much.. Ok, maybe too much.

Episode Summary:
Therapist and author of “What If It’s Wonderful?” Nicole Zasowski shares how 10 years of chronic loss shaped her view of joy, the way our brains adapt to joy and how we can cultivate it in every season. Tangents included: Bald monsters…
Practice: Pause and Cultivate Joy by celebrating something today.

If you’ve found this or another practice helpful, let us know at mail@10000minutes.com and we might include your story in a future episode!


Show Notes:
“What If It’s Wonderful?” Book: https://www.nicolezasowski.com 
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Episode Transcription

When God does something to further a dream in our story or there's breakthrough, let's celebrate that. But the problem becomes when we want more from that thing, when we want more joy, when we're expecting more joy from it. Mm-hmm. . Oh good. Then it's meant to give. And then, then our celebration, um, starts to be about, you know, disordered love versus, um, you know, proper celebration. Should reorganize what we love.

Hey everybody, welcome to the 10,000 Minute podcast. Hey guys, uh, some of us are putting up our hair right now. Yeah. Into a man bun. And I'm gonna be real. That's nice. Candid right now. It does look really nice. Good. It's not me.

I feel so free. I'm

In a rough spot here too.

. Well, I'm fine with It's not you. It's not me. True. I'm fine with my baldness. You know, in, in, so we're just in Costa Rica. Oh, wow. And how about brag the door about it? I was, I

I know that kinda hurt Chris. He said Okay. It was about my hair, but now it's about your trip. Whatever

I was talking about my baldness tan.

Your, your head looks tan.

It does look tan.

It looks crisp. I saw it at church yesterday. I thought, yeah. Good job, tan. You got a little sun. Thank you.

I got a lot of sun, but

It gets sun every day. So how's it? It's much more tan, you

Know. Well, the numbers, they don't add up. who can crunch the numbers out there

For us? Closer to the equator

In

Costa Rica? In Costa Rica.

Costa Rica. Yeah. Costa Rica. Um, you know, I was, I was trying to think of something stupid. Okay.

Hang the Bono or

So hanging with Bono. Yeah. Yeah. Which would be a dumb thing that I would say. And, uh, yeah. They, they made a lot of jokes about me being a pelon, like a bald

Guy. Oh

Yeah.

Wow.

So,

I, you know what? I've never seen he never drinking. Bald guy. Yeah. Never, never a Hispanic, bald man. Have you ever seen one

Ever? Yeah. My uncle. Okay.

. Well, maybe

I'll bring a photo in next time. Bring a show and sell everyone. Bring a bald person and just be like, I have from every culture I have ply exist. Yeah.

I, I just maybe thought it was only white guys.

Hmm.

So today is on cultural sensitivity.

. Yes. We apologize.

Edit that

Out five different ways.

Yeah. If you're bald and you're Latino, um, please send a picture.

. Okay. No, no, we're cutting it. We're cutting it right there. Just cutting it. Next. Okay. Costa Rica,

You were in Costa Rica with

Bono. I was in Costa Rica with Bono, and he said, Tim, would you sing one of your songs to me again? . He just said, I'm bald .

Wait a minute.

Okay. Any who? So my name's Tim Timmons, everybody.

Hey Tim.

What's your name?

It's, uh, Chris. Christopher Kyle Cleveland. Thank you.

Oh, that's right.

Mm-hmm. It's a perfect name.

And my name is Oi Theis, but Oi is my middle name.

And you have a ball. That's

All I have to say. I have a ball done face

With his last name is Denise. Sometimes

His last name is Notis. Ooh.

This is a plot twist

Stick around Season two

Juicy

. Alright. Alright. Season

Two is juicy. That's be really great. . Uh, okay. So you guys, this week we have an ama I'd never met her before. Right. Had you met her

Before? No, but I was able to get my hands on an early release of that book Yeah. That she wrote. Um, and it was, um, amazing. The stuff I read. I was so excited. Yeah,

Yeah. Yeah. So we, we've been very excited about this episode specifically, and it did not disappoint. So she's an mft. Mm-hmm. , which we'll talk about in a bit. Um, her name is Nicole Zaki.

Zaki.

Zaki. I was just kidding. I was kidding. I was totally kidding.

Hey. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In your eyes was all a joke.

Isn't that Mike, Mike Suski?

Mike was

A

Fake fan in it shows. Okay. I love Monsters Inc. Monsters. You is such a great art

Piece. Please. Oh, you know what? Offend

Me one

More time. Come to think, come to think of it. There are no bald monsters. . I think most of them are. Yeah, I do too. Freddie Krueger. Yeah. Freddie Krueger's. Not bald. So that's, that's what we wanna talk about today too. Okay.

But he is, but you can't tell under the fedora again,

Another fake fan. I love that movie. We'll unpack that. Another fan,

Was he like, he like, he takes his hat off something. Is

He bald? Yes, he's bald. Oh.

Cause you know, cause of the

Fire. Guys, we'll cut it. It's

Too much . You guys. Just trying to think of B Bible characters that were bald. Right? He Aki Moses. Moses, Abraham, Jesus. Jesus. Prove me wrong. Yeah. Yeah.

What a thing to prove

. Yeah. You know what, . So however you see yourself today, uh, you guys enjoy this episode with Nicole.

Hey, this is Moy. Each episode we're going to hear from listeners about the impact that practices like this one from season one have had in their life. Here's Jen.

Hi, my name is Jen. I'm from Richmond, Virginia, and this is my 10,000 minutes practice story From season one, I struggled 40 plus years with pride, perfection, and self-loathing. When I couldn't attain that perfection, every mistake, no matter how small, had me beating myself up as to how dumb I was, how stupid I was, how unworthy I was. The mirror is our worst enemy. We aren't pretty enough, we aren't skinny enough. This flaw, that flaw all extenuated by a thousand percent. This practice helps me remember what and who God says I am and how he sees me. No matter how much I mess up or how badly I see myself, this stuck with me. And I have it on a note on my bathroom mirror. No matter what, God lavishes his love on you all day long. Breathe in. You love me. Breathe out no matter what. Thank you, Tim, for this 10,000 minutes practice. No matter what.

If you found this bit or any other practice helpful, let us know by emailing mail@tenthousandminutes.com and we might include your story in a feature episode.

Everybody, welcome to the 10,000 Minute podcast.

My name is no real

Transition. Timothy Howard Timmons. We've got a moi. Denise. Hello. Now in a different place today. Really to my hot left.

Yeah, it's me guys. This is the closest we've been. It's me. Yeah.

You two have never really been together.

I don't know. That's why I'm turning this way. Yeah, it's it's new. It's uncomfortable. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Open up the mana and then it's me. I'm so sorry. I'm gonna go this way. Can take it Cleveland.

Hey guys, on the far left, just . I mean, and that's fine. And we can go there politically and all the other things too. This is, it's,

I didn't think, I didn't even think about it then I'm over here. Yes.

And then to my far right. No, this isn't working super well. , you just, you, you, there's no judgment here on who you are, where you, I'm so grateful for you fall in all those places. Cause we're just trying to figure out bigger things than those things. Great. So everybody, this is Nicole now. Nicole, would you help me out?

Always. My first question, z Suzowski

Zk.

Yes. Very good. Because

It's like, kind of how it looks. Yeah, it is. It just, there's an

S it's surprisingly phonetic, but it looks overwhelming.

There's an S here that sounds like a Z and there's a Z. That sounds like a Z. And then there's another S That sounds like an S.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. . So you gotta guess right.

Okay. What was your, what

Was your

Nickname? Wallace

Wallace's. Here. Name know

How much I love my husband cause I'm milling .

That is a big commitment.

It's a

Big it. Oh man.

My poor kids always last for everything.

Right?

No,

Didn't even think about that. I know it's a long road. I mean, I'm Timon so I'm, I'm pretty far back there. But Zeki is

Like, yeah, that's

Usually the bitter end. Yeah.

Oh man.

Learning z I can't even think of a . Zzz

Zimmerman. Zimman Zimmerman. Might be a little further. Yep.

Okay. So you are from the Connecticut, that's where you live right now? Yes,

Yes. We've lived there a a little over 10 years. Yeah,

Because before that you were from the California.

Yes, we lived there, uh, first for six years. And I grew up in Seattle. Ooh,

You're from that. So this is the fourth corner. I'm jealous of Seattle.

Yeah. Yeah, I am too. That's so nice. I I would love, it's a beautiful part of the country and I loved being from there and love visiting. So wonderful. Great place.

And just for fun, the guy that you make out with works for Disney, right?

. So we've heard He does. He does.

Yes. Amazing. What's he do?

He, well, he has more the boring side of Disney. Okay.

That's great. Make it make it sound cool.

. He is Senior Vice President of business strategy for Disney. That's

Pretty good. You're welcome. Disney Plus. Yeah. So

It's a big project. Disney.

I bet it was. Sis. Come on.

Born the same day as my second son. So we didn't see a whole lot of my husband leaning up to

The bird. . So that's part of what we'd

Love to talk about today. Just resentment.

with Disney and yeah.

So he's not here. What would you like to say to him? Like

, he actually is in Nashville. He came

Just to support. Shoulda out today.

He should've. He should've. Okay, so why don't, he's a lot of fun to talk to have

Been, I feel blank when you

We'll send him an episode to

I feel loved when he supports

Me and comes with me. Wish right there. Exactly. Talking make, she's not today, Satan. That's how she said. Yeah, that's right. Not today, .

Um, so you are also a shrink.

Yes. Yes. I'm a marriage and family therapist.

So are you an M F T? Do you have your M F T? What do you Yep.

Okay. Those are my letters. Okay.

That's marriage, family therapist. That's

What she literally just said. Monday, Fridays and Tuesdays in the room. What'd you leave Monday? I think just her availability. Monday's, Fridays and Tuesdays. Okay. That's good. Thank you. Um, you know, that's why they keep me, you know, she's so quick.

Um, my mom is an MFT as well. Oh great.

Yeah. In California. I don't know if that's where she is. Yes. But there's a lot of them. Yes.

She's

Awesome. She was on and it was actually one of our biggest episodes. So we were talking about grief.

Oh yes. Wonderful.

She just laid it down. It was,

It was pretty real. Yes.

Yeah. Carol is her name. Carol

Can't wait. We're really trying to do, bring a lot of therapists on so we don't have to pay. So Yeah. This more barter system, you can bill us later. It's

So, Chris and I were on a walk this morning cause we go on walks.

I love that. I do

Too. Um, and which is really great. And you know, it's not like we're walking together, like in the Christian form, we literally just go on walks. Right. . And so, but there was something that he said I was talking about that was like, gosh, I need help on this. It's like, well, let's find somebody for that

. So most of it, most guess, most

Of you guys are gonna be can

Speak to

It. Yes, yes. Help us out.

I love that.

So, uh, you have a book that's out Yep. A month. And your first book was a total awesome timing cuz it came out a week before pandemic.

What was that? A few weeks? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perfect. Before the pandemic hit, it was really great. Just when all your marketing and publicity is happening, , it's supposed to

Just kill

Yes. At that point. Yeah.

Get it, man.

Um, but this, this book is very intriguing. Thanks. Yes. I mean, your name is intriguing in and of itself. , just all the Zs and the Ss. Uh, but what if it's wonderful. I love questions. Mm-hmm. , uh, I think Jesus loved questions. Mm-hmm. . And it seems to be how he taught or through great questions. And obviously you being a therapist, you know the gift of questions. Yeah. Um, so we have got none for you, . We just wanted to have you just on to talk about who knows

,

But celebration. We're, we're trying to, with 10,000 minutes, we're always trying to figure out how do we put whatever these wise things are into practice, whether Jesus principles or whatnot, how do we put them into practice and not just go, oh, that's a cool book, but what's it look like to put these things into actual life, everyday life practice. So would you just give us a little bit of background on this book? Mm-hmm. , what if it's wonderful. Uh, release your fears, choose joy, and find the courage to

Celebrate. Yeah. So a lot of, um, people look at the cover and they read that question, what if it's wonderful and they assume that it was born out of a season of joy and good news. Right. And that I have a lot to say about celebration and I do now. Um, and in part that that's true. But really this book was born out of a season of pain and loss and change. Hmm. Um, I had walked through about 10 years of chronic loss and grief. Mm-hmm. And you know, when you go through loss of any kind, whether it's a season or an event, there's what happened. There's the thing itself, the loss, and then there's the cost. And the cost is the impact to your identity and your sense of safety. Hmm. And what took me a really long time to realize was that part of the cost for me was that my joy when I did start stepping into a season that was characterized by more good news and breakthrough, my joy was accompanied by a lot of fear. I was always waiting for the other shoe to drop. Yeah. Most people don't realize that joy is actually the most vulnerable feeling we feel because when you hold something, it is automatically accompanied by the possibility of disappointment or loss. Is

That a thing that joys the most

Vulnerable? Yes. Brene Brown talks a lot about that, and I've certainly realized it to be true as a therapist. And in my own life. There's a vulner. We, we think of pain being vulnerable and certainly it is. Right. But, but this idea of holding something mm-hmm. and, um, being able to tolerate enjoying that and not waiting for the other shoe to drop or for there to be a catch to your celebration of some kind. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . So that really sent me on a quest to understand what does scripture say about celebration? What does the neuroscience research say about joy and celebration? And why am I so afraid of this mm-hmm. . Um, and because I was really grieved talk about grief when I woke up one morning and just realized, yeah, I've, I've experienced a lot of loss, but a lot of the loss I've experienced is because of my refusal to embrace god's very good gifts in my life. Mm-hmm. And I thought, I don't wanna miss out on my beautiful God-given life because I am so busy trying to prepare for the worst. Mm. And so that's how this book was born.

Okay. So you, you, I mean, reading through, um, a bit of your book as I already have, um, there are a lot of struggles with, um, with losing children. I mean, you lost three kids, right? I mean, five, five kids. This is like an ongoing,

It's an ongoing thing. My husband and I have a diagnosis that when I conceive a child, I have an over 50% chance of losing that baby to miscarriage. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So there's this tension and it lasts about two months. There's this tension when I do get pregnant and I have, I, I definitely wanna recognize not every story ends like mine. Um, I now have three right. Healthy children, um mm-hmm. , and I'm so aware that that's not everyone's story, but but that waiting period of there being, you know, two months where I'm trying to have courage to hope and celebrate what, what ha this life Yeah. Whether I am Yeah. Yep. Whether I'm able to know the outcome or not. Um, and sitting in that tension of knowing what could be, um, but also celebrating what is mm-hmm. , uh, I think regardless of what your story is, I think we all have invitations to do that. Mm-hmm.

Okay. So practically, what's that look like? Cause I love that as a statement, but like Yes. Practically, when you're like, okay, this sucks. Mm-hmm. like, this just happened again mm-hmm. . And I'm also so grateful for what I have. So you need to have healthy grieving mm-hmm. and also embracing what is so what, how does that, how do you help people? How have you learned? What are you learning?

Yes. So go 30. I have a lot to say on this. Yes.

. Yes. We've got two minutes left on the podcast.

Real quick. Yeah. So the 30,000 foot view. Perfect.

You know what, this has been such a great time with you, Nicole. Stop. Sorry. I wanna hear smarter people than goodness.

So the 30,000 foot view is, um, I feel like in general we tend to look at celebration as a reaction to good news. Mm-hmm. or a reward for mm-hmm. an accomplishment. And certainly I'm not diminishing or disparaging celebration that does look like that because some do and that's wonderful and we need to keep celebrating those beautiful things. However, when I started looking at all those feasts and festivals outlined in the Old Testament, um, and really trying to understand what does celebration look like, biblically a through line was the Israelites didn't celebrate when they were in the mood to do so. Mm. Or because it was convenient timing or because they had finished all their work and they wanted to reward themselves or something awesome happened. They celebrated because it was time to do so. They celebrated in rhythm. Mm. And so, in general, celebration is a rhythm and a practice that helps us cultivate joy in the lives we're already living.

Mm-hmm. And not merely a reaction or a reward when there's a shift or a change. Again, it, it can include those things, but this is way more of a discipline and a practice than it is a trophy at the end of a dream realized, or a goal achieved or some sort of shift in circumstances mm-hmm. . And so within that, when we understand celebration as a practice, what was really important to me in that last section of the book, which gets more practical, I continue in biblical teaching and personal story, but really practical to your question. Yeah. What does this look like tangibly? Yeah. What was important to me is that those practices are accessible to all of us. So if you're in a season of suffering or a season of celebration, um, you can practice these things and I'll just talk about a few of my favorites. Yeah, yeah. If that's okay. So the first is, um, this practice of savoring and savoring celebrates the ordinary. And the reason I love it so much, sorry.

Savor, savoring,

Savoring celebrates the ordinary. The ordinary, okay. Mm-hmm. . So that's one reason I love it, is you don't have to wait for something to shift. This is about cultivating joy in the life that you're already living. The other reason I love it so much is there's some things going on neurologically in the brain that are not super helpful to our tendency to celebrate. So there's this thing called the hedonic treadmill, which basically means our brains rapidly adapt to joy. So what's new and exciting and maybe the gift that we thought would make us want for nothing else mm-hmm. soon quickly phase into the background and the sparkle starts, starts to wear off those things. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the second is a phenomenon that, that many people are familiar with, but it's worth mentioning is our brains are just stickier with painful information. So because our brains are so efficient, they're only gonna pick up and hold and, and captur and keep what um, they think they're gonna need. Yeah. Which often is those painful things that we tend to worry about. Yeah,

I remember you mentioned that in the book actually. Yes. Something about, about how how quick we are Yep. To always hold onto those things versus the positive things.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Exactly. And then the third thing is we have this wonderful said sarcastically tendency to tell our joy how it can be improved upon. So , maybe you finish and, and a podcast episode mm-hmm. and you think, ah, that was an awesome conversation. We totally connected and we had this great conversation. Yeah. Our listeners are gonna love it. And then all of a sudden you start thinking, oh, I should have asked that question. Mm-hmm. instead. Or they had this response, but what if, what if they could have had that response mm-hmm. , you know, and you start telling your joy what would've made it better. Mm-hmm. So I say all of that because that's our starting place. The the brain left on neutral leans negative. And so savoring is our fight against that. And the way that you do this is you just take a snapshot. I like to do it in the present moment. So when I just have this moment of delight, like literally a snapshot does not need to be hours long. And you just ask your five traditional senses what they're gonna remember mm-hmm. About that moment. So what do you see? What do you hear? What do you smell? What do you taste? And what do you feel? And that puts that memory, that moment in, in a way that your brain can capture it, keep it, carry it forward, and recall it later, and ultimately celebrate it. Mm-hmm.

So it's a stacking of stones, if you

Will. Yes. Yes.

Just a more practical way of mm-hmm.

. Yeah. There's an ebenezer quality to it of this is something that we can return to. Yeah. And I, I was talking about this in another conversation and kind of realizing it real time just this morning that, you know, we are so busy trying to capture every moment for social media or Right. You know, get the picture right on our phones. And that's so relationally disconnecting, or at least it can be mm-hmm. . And this is a way that keeps us engaged with our lives. And, and you can preserve the memory, but in a way that you can carry it in your heart and stay connected. The probably the biggest practice for tolerating that joy for, for hanging on and holding that good gift, um, is the practice of Thanksgiving. We often talk about gratitude and we even use them interchangeably. Mm-hmm. . And I love that gratitude has been a more common conversation in recent years cuz it helps us notice and name what is good. So the noticing helps us scan our environment for delight in our days. And then the naming puts a structure around it that helps us be able to carry it forward. What we don't often talk about is that yes, joy is gleaned from gratitude. Yeah. But Thanksgiving actually expressing the gratitude we feel to the other person doubles the joy that we gleaned from gratitude. So just sharing that with the person Yeah. Doubles the joy that we would have had. We simply felt grateful.

Make that a gi give me a story behind that or an

Illustration. Yes. Um, so when I am sitting with a friend and just feeling really thankful for this person's presence in my life, I would glean some joy from just noticing, wow, I love this person and they've made such a difference. Uh, their friendship has made such a difference to me. Versus if I look them in the eye and say, I need you to know this is the difference you make by being in my life. These are the ways that I've grown because you're, you're my friend and the ways that you love me and challenge me, here's why my life is better. Yeah. Because you're in it that just throws gasoline .

Yeah. The first, so that you're saying, you're saying that the first part of that was just thankfulness. It's like, I'm so thankful that they're in my life.

Gratitude gratitude's the feeling. Yep. And then the thankfulness is actually, I'm gonna tell you gonna shared,

It's a shared thank, it's a shared celebration. Mm-hmm. .

Okay. Yep. I love that. And when we think about my favorite story on this is, um, the, the healing of the 10 lepers. And they all cry out to Jesus, you know, they've got nothing to lose by Yeah. Calling out to him and asking for healing. And he tells them, go to the temple, which is traditionally the next step you take after being healed. So they had to have faith that they'd be healed on the way. Sure enough, they start to see their own healing in the faces and bodies of their friends. We can assume given the life change, that that would be that they all felt grateful. Yeah. But only one return to thank Jesus. And Jesus says, well, we're all 10 healed. Yeah. That's good. And and that wasn't merely, I always read that story as, as like, Jesus making a bid for our praise. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And it wasn't merely a bid for our praise. It, it's Thanksgiving is our opportunity to celebrate the gift with the giver. Mm. And this is our, our opportunity to celebrate with God, um, through Thanksgiving. And so it's that shared piece.

Love that. Love

That. That's so important.

So that's practical. Yes. Is what you're trying

To say.

Uh, there were a few questions, uh, you had said, yeah, what joys in your life are standing awkwardly in the wrong position? And then what celebration in your life has eclipsed your celebration of God? I thought those were two really inter interesting questions. I don't, I don't know what to do with those questions. Can you give me a little I can

Talk about 'em.

. Yeah.

Yeah. . Um, yeah. An honest reflection of my life when I was researching and writing this book, um, was realizing that a lot of the disappointment I feel in life is yes, in part cuz of the no or the missed opportunity or the provision looking different than my vision. Right. Um, but more often than not, it's because I've expected more joy from the gift than it was meant to give. And so these, you know, what sits at the center of our affection will determine the satiation of our joy.

That's another line I wrote down. That was great. Oh,

Thank you. Yeah. Um,

Didn't understand it, but it sound it sounded for satiation. Sorry.

Use that in a sentence please.

Satire, satire,

.

Um, sorry, say it again. Cause I totally jacked up . Yeah. No, no,

No. What sits at the center of our affection Yes. Will determine the satiation of our joy. Meaning the, there's a lot of beautiful gifts that we all get to experience in our lives. Relationships, you know, good news opportunities that we get Yeah. To use our gifts. Yep. These are all really good things and we should celebrate them. Yeah. When, when God does something to further a dream in our story or there's breakthrough, let's celebrate that. But the problem becomes when we want more from that thing, when we want more joy, when we're expecting more joy from it mm-hmm. so good. Then it's meant to give. And then, then our celebration, um, starts to be about, you know, disordered love versus, um, you know, proper celebration should reorganize what we love. And of course, the only thing that belongs at the center is Christ

Proper celebration should reorder our love. Mm-hmm. , is that what you just said? Yes. Do you guys have any thoughts on things that you hold in those spaces or, I've

Got a lot of thoughts mm-hmm. , I think mm-hmm. , I think this is like a slam dunk. I mean, as a, as you're talking through a lot of these things, I can like place myself in all of these moments. Like you're talking about the first thing when you're taking those snapshots. And I have this similar thing I started doing in my life and I don't know what I'd call it. It sounds more morbid to me, uh, in my head maybe cuz my personality. But, uh, but I've tried to start taking these small moments in normal life, like with my kids or whatever, and I just laying there and one day this moment came into my head, and so I've tried to like, keep it attached to it. I was like, if I'm on my deathbed, this is what I'm gonna think about. Hmm. Like, all of my kids laying on top of me doing something like real normal, but amazing. You know, it's like, this is the thing. Not, not all this stuff I'm chasing, but, so I've been, I've like found a lot of those snapshots and been aware of it. And then as you were talking about doubling your joy, singing about my birthday was just this week. And, um, happy birthday.

Thanks. He keeps singing. Yeah, I know. It's not even his birthday. That's every podcast. It's

November

.

Uh, uh, and sometimes for my wife, I'll do like, you know, I always write her letters mm-hmm. or something mm-hmm. . Um, and, uh, and she wrote me this poem, uh, for my birthday, which was like really, really sweet. And it, it was almost like, like when she gave it to me the first day, it was almost, it was like so much I couldn't react absorbing almost, you know mm-hmm. . And, uh, I knew, I knew it was special and then I like kind of digested it for a day and a half. And then we went to dinner last night and I was able to kind of verbalize what that was and I saw the double of joy. Mm. You know what I mean? And so, um, in, in how, how in, in her being able to react to, to what it meant to me. Mm. I think, and by me being able to like, find the words for it mm-hmm. , um, and, and tell her about it. I think there was this, it's almost like how blessing, like expounds upon itself, um, um, I could, I could feel that in the moment of like, all of it just like going exponential. You know what I mean? And, um, so these practices, I think, uh, they're right on for me. I mean, uh, you're, you're hitting the nail on the head, which is really great for a person who's not very good at celebrating. I get that. Or being joyful the same.

Thank you for sharing that. Yeah.

I brought her on Chris . Thanks.

I have a question. What does it look like? Or, because I, I feel like this helps us gain awareness in maybe in the mundane mm-hmm. , at least that's what I'm hearing. What about the chaos and like the actual depth of pain mm-hmm. to like, have the energy to like, almost not feel so distant from trying to be grateful Yeah. For something how, or in your experience mm-hmm. , what is like a realistic, um, view or timeline, uh, of like what it would look like for someone in the depth of just losing someone Mm. That's like, there's no rush to this or No, this is actually available to you even in the middle of you just losing Yeah. This big piece. Or is it it just takes time. Mm-hmm. , like what does that look like for someone in the middle of good of just a dark season?

Yeah. I love that question because, um, toxic positivity would be, uh, an angle. Mm-hmm. not on this book. This book is very not toxic. Positivity. Explain what that means. That would just be, yeah. So, so toxic positivity, um, expects what is good in life or what, um, you might be thankful for to cancel any Right, right. Feeling. Right. So both can't be true. We're just, we're gonna pull you right out of that grief mm-hmm. and, uh, that is so unhelpful, um, and

Huge right now. Yes. Isn't

That what God is supposed to do for us

? Right, right. Because God is good, nothing hurts nothing. Yes. Everything makes sense, right?

Yes. And God is so good and life is so hurtful and painful mm-hmm. , um, at times mm-hmm. . And, and so being able to honor that both are true and in the spirit of that, you know, I think your celebration will look different mm-hmm. , um, in a season of suffering, it is not going to look like confetti and mm-hmm. , um, you know, laughter and, um, although there might be moments of that, um, but w it, so it will look different, but you can practice it concurrently. Mm-hmm. and I, I was confronted with this a few weeks ago. I'll just share, um, our community experienced the most horrific tragedy. A a car accident that killed a young man mm-hmm. , um, obviously very sudden, very unexpected. Yeah. And it was an awful day in Connecticut, like just right above freezing and wet and windy and all day long, I just had this urge to go to the beach and pick up seaglass, which is something I do almost daily.

Mm. And it's my favorite way of spending time alone with God. And I thought, well that is so interesting. I mean, who would wanna go outside today? Um, it's so awful. But I just, I couldn't ignore it. And I realized, okay, what does celebration look like when you're suffering? It looks like remembrance. Mm-hmm. Remembering who God is. Mm-hmm. Remembering the ways that he has been faithful in the past. Even if you have no earthly idea what the next minute, let alone the next day or year is gonna look like, reflecting on who God is, who he's been to you. That is how I celebrate when I'm grieving. And no, it doesn't look like confetti. Right. Um, but, but again, going back to those Old Testament celebrations, they were about remembering God's goodness. They were not a reward for our own goodness. Yeah. And so that remembrance component, I think is, is for us today too. Mm-hmm. That's what their celebration was about. Mm-hmm. , um, and even the year of Jubilee was just sounds like a year long party. Yeah. In the title, they forgave all debts, they released all slaves, they returned all property and land to their original owner was all about release. Um, and in those areas that they may have been tempted to replace God, they celebrated God as their ultimate security mm-hmm. And kept a light touch on those things. So the year of Jubilee was about remembering God as their ultimate security. Mm.

Swish on that. Yeah. , I think there's a, there's a freedom in knowing that Yeah. In, in the middle of the dark seasons mm-hmm. it can easily feel like not everything is being offered to you. Yeah. Right. Like pain is offered to me right now. That's what it might feel like, but when you really understand that celebration can look different, but celebration is still being offered. Yeah. Like the invitation is there, you know, comfort is still being offered, might not look like how you expect it. Yeah. That frees you to celebrate the things that haven't changed, which is God's presence completing you.

Yeah.

I feel like if I had known that in my grieving cuz I lost a brother in 2011, I'm sorry. I think it, it would've helped me not feel so removed and isolated Ah-huh. That I'm still unpacking today. Yeah. I think I would've walked with Jesus through my grief so good. Instead of just like so good hiding it and then finally learning how to share it. Mm-hmm. if I'd known like you're, you can still celebrate, but it will look different. Yes. It's more of an expectation, not a lack of, you know, offering from God to you. Yeah. Kind of deal.

Yeah. That's so well said. I, I was talking with Jess Connolly who wrote the forward of the book and one of the things she said was pre pandemic, I feel like this rhythm of celebration would've strengthened me for what I needed mm-hmm. in that painful season. And it reminds me of Nehemiah eight 10 where the joy of the Lord is our strength. Mm-hmm. delighting in him, his character, his faithfulness. There's a strengthening component to it. Yeah. Like you said, even if it, it doesn't look how we typically think of celebration a party mm-hmm. , um, it, there's, there's a practice and a rhythm to it that's strengthening mm-hmm. , um, for, for the simultaneous pain. Mm-hmm. . So I love that you shared that. Mm.

The practicality of this is really great. Yes. Because, and how it builds like snapshot to a practice of joy. Like, we're gonna do this because we do it and uh, and then the right siding, the expectation of what it's supposed to provide us, I think is really interesting. Mm-hmm. because, because I do think most of us think it's only a reward mm-hmm. to, to have joy mm-hmm. , but not a, uh, a practice that we can step into all the time. Mm-hmm. And being able to switch that is powerful. Mm-hmm. , I think especially in those walks, more

What stops people then. Mm-hmm. . So as you are, you're a therapist and you're meeting with people Yep. And you're walking through this stuff all the time. You're like, I've got, there's a groundbreaking new book, , ah, baby Steps, but , um, what do you see in people? Like what's stopping us you, what are the barriers? Mm-hmm. , I mean, talk about fear.

Yes. Um, so this is an, an exhaustive list. Um, but there's about five reasons that seem to come up over and over again. The first is that fear piece where we're afraid of the other shoe dropping. Um, you know, if I hold joy it's just gonna get taken away. Yeah. Mm-hmm. easier to keep my expectations low. Uh, the second is we're just waiting for a reason to celebrate mm-hmm. so we're not practicing celebration. Right. As a rhythm. Mm.

Like, which I, I know some people that that would be a real Yeah. They live in that space. I'm like, well nothing good's ever happening.

Yes, exactly. And they think they're perfectly willing to celebrate if that good thing came along

Right when it comes, gosh, that's so profound. Yeah. Which

Is interesting cuz you're talking about celebration existing in the past and present. Yeah. And we're seeing it at a as a future only kind of thing. Yeah.

So that it's a rhythm available to us now. Um, the third is, um, we are unsure how to reconcile this invitation to celebrate with our value of humility. We see those as mutually mm-hmm. Exclusive instead of something that goes together actually quite beautifully.

Say that another way.

So when, so I'll just speak personally. Yeah. Thank you. I have discovered that my hesitancy to celebrate is actually a sign that I have made that celebration about me. This false humility of Got it. Nope. Can't receive any affirmation or can't, I'm just not gonna make a big deal of this. Um, because it draws attention to myself. Mm-hmm. actually that's a sign that I've made the thing about me. But when I recognize God stuffed these gifts inside me, he gave me opportunities to use them. That's all him. I celebrate freely. Cause I just get to say, look what God did. Mm-hmm. , um, this is so fun for me to get to be a part of, but this, this is his movement in my life and this is his, the way, his design of me for the purpose that he gave me so I can bring him glory.

And so that's the heart of David when he is, you know, going wild with celebration when they bring the art arc of the covenant in and people are looking upon him like this is so inappropriate. Hmm. Um, you know, mial Saul's daughter had some strong opinions on that and, and he's not celebrating to draw attention to himself. He's celebrating because he recognizes he's been the recipient of grace. Mm. Um, and so humility and celebration actually I think go together more than mm-hmm. as opposing forces. And then the fourth reason is obviously we're all a part of community and not everyone lives the same kind of story at the same time. And so how do we rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn? Yes. When our stories look different. And so usually what we default to is just staying quiet. Mm-hmm. like, if I'm in pain, I'm not gonna reign on anybody else's parade and be be a downer.

Mm-hmm. So I'm just gonna stay quiet If I am celebrating, I'm not gonna hurt somebody else and be insensitive. So I'm just gonna be quiet. And our default is to do both alone. Mm-hmm. Um, and the joy comes from doing both together. And then the fifth reason, um, is something that I experienced perf, uh, personally, but hear it a lot, you know, in that dark season, in that season of pain, a a totally different relationship with God, um, formed between the two of us. And that was so precious to me. The, the ways that I grew in that season, um, the ways that I came to know God differently in that season was such a special gift of that pain. Hmm. And I was sad when I realized, having grown up in the church my whole life, I had no context for what it looked like to intimately engage with God in the light of my joy. Mm-hmm. . And I was scared that that growth would go away, that that closeness with Christ would go away in the light of my joy. Uh, I don't think that's true. Um, and have since learned, uh, what that looks like. But I, I was really afraid that, that that piece would go away. And so, um, my tendency was to kind of like lean back into the suffering where I felt that closeness versus like engage that joy. Totally.

Yeah. And I think it's a reflection of how we understand God in our own personal walk with him. Mm-hmm. . Because for me for a while I thought if I celebrate this or if I lean into the joy, what if he takes it to just teach me a new lesson, shape me again, make me more complete. Whatever I thought was this idea of like God's true desire for me is to always be a better, more complete version of myself. So this gift is so for now, but it could be taken away any time cuz that's the kind of God he

Is. Isn't that funny that we just balance the, our experiences of I've lived a really bountiful celebratory season, so now it's time for him to teach me a lesson. Yes. And . Yes. So we have this sort of ledger in our minds. I have the same thing. Um, and and that circles back to the fear component of if I hold this, surely my turn is coming next. Yep. Um mm-hmm. or that God is always, I even say in the book, I walked with a God who was always eager to teach me something for a long time. Yeah. And like wasn't able to move through the joy in my life. Yeah. Was only ever like I thought the good in my life would always look like broccoli on a dinner plate. Mm. Good. Good for me. But not particularly exciting. And

So such a good

Visual. Um, yeah. I really resonate with that.

Yes. And do you think that is going to be, maybe not, I don't know, but like a topic post pandemic mm-hmm. just a fear I do of celebrating anything cuz everyone lost their jobs. Yeah. A lot of people lost jobs. A lot of people lost people. Mm-hmm. , a lot of people lost homes. And what if there's another pandemic? What if we hit another thing that just like, what's the point of rebuilding or mm-hmm. rejoicing. Do you think that's gonna be

Like I think it already is. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it will continue to this hesitation around joy and celebration. And that is why I'm so, so passionate about celebration being a rhythm mm-hmm. and not something that's circumstantial because I used to go into a new year with so much anxiety. Yeah. Um, just the transition of one calendar year to another with all that lack of like dreaming and vision casting and goals. It would give me

I two k must have been restful full. We're still a packing white two kids. That's what it's that's right.

But just this idea of like, I hope I have a reason to feel joyful and mm-hmm. Um, and I saw that conversation so strongly since the pandemic started. Like, this is gonna be our year. It's an as if there's something magic about the

Right turn of the calendar yesterday, .

Um, but just being able to say no regardless, we have mm-hmm. , we celebrations available to us and we have a reason to celebrate even if there's not an obvious shift in our circumstances. So I'm hoping that the pandemic helps our celebration lean toward the eternal and, and like we said earlier, reorder what we love. Mm-hmm. Um, so that we're not just chronically disappointed by expecting more joy from these gifts that they're not meant to give.

So good. Yes.

Thank you.

Mm-hmm. , we uh, we have done a lot of rethinking our thinking on things . So if we see Yes. The word repent is to rethink your thinking on. I love that. On all these things. And so we've, we've rethought blessing and just blowing our minds to the church, to all these different things. So this is almost rethinking joy for us. Wonderful. Rethinking celebration. Celebration.

Yes. And joy,

Which leads the celebration lead to joy or is joy, how does that work?

I think celebration is a practice that cultivates joy in our lives. Mm-hmm. , sometimes we experience joy cuz there's it, we kind of get hit in the face with it mm-hmm. In life. Mm-hmm. and we celebrate sometimes it does look like that and that's okay too. But I think more often in a more empowering perspective is practicing celebration is what cultivates joy. Mm-hmm.

. So good.

So good.

Thank you. I'm glad this resonated. Thank you.

Yes. Yeah. Amazing.

You guys wanna start the podcast? Yeah.

George

Hours. So guys, any other problems that you have a few things record? Um, okay. So now we're gonna jump into 10,000 thoughts. Okay. Awesome. That sounds like a funny joke after actually. Just, just like speed round. Oh man, dumbness. Okay. It's gonna be great. Um, if you need to drink some water, go right ahead. This is, this is where it matters. Okay. Yeah, because your husband sent us a few things. Okay, good. Um, that were a little inappropriate. I thought this was not okay for me to read, you know what I mean? So any Okay. Cats versus dogs.

Dots,

Who's amazing. We've been visceral reaction every time.

Yeah. I'm actually, I don't have, I'm not afraid of many things in life.

You're afraid of

Cats? I terrified of cats.

You think they're gonna kill you? Chris. Literally think they're gonna kill them.

Okay. We could talk for like really

Long . That's fun. That's fine.

So I had very strange jobs when I was a kid and one of them, well my first babysitting job, they had four cats. Yep. Mm. Not kids cats. Yep. Yep. And one of 'em, my em too , one of em's named the cats name was Muddy and he was not supposed to come out of the basement because he was super mean. No.

Oh

No. And I used to give these kids kids glow in the dark stickers. , and they'd put them on the bed, um, to, and we'd turn off the lights and we'd see the sticker light up. Yeah. And I was walking back after turning off the lights toward the bed and this cat muddy had

Gotten Sun of a money outta

A horror movie. Like claw my leaped off the bed with glowing eyes and clawed my face. Um, so that was one experience. And then I had a house sat a very wealthy family Yeah. That had the house for them. And then they also had a house for their cats up the driveway as one

Does . So like a little coop, like a cat

Coop? No, I'm talking like its own address. Yeah.

Like a family of fun. Oh

My goodness. Lived in this place. Yeah. And so they had I think four cats in there as well. And I, everyone had a different like need and I was just so scared the whole

Time. My

Goodness. Not that I, and I hope I don't make your listeners very angry.

Angry. Yeah. You've, I've got a lot of people. You've lost so many cat lovers. But I'm not, I'm

Not the, the biggest animal person in the world. I appreciate them, but I'm not like passionate about animals. We

Have a couple dogs so you could Oh no. Dug up to the Connecticut.

But I do, um, I do prefer dogs for obvious reason.

It makes sense. The numbers add up. Wow. Cats versus Satan , they're about the same. Yeah. Okay. Gosh, I really would love to go deeper into that whole story that again, we should care front those people. What if we went and care fronted them? There

You go. There you

Go. Okay. Uh, we don't wanna confront. Yeah. We want to care front. I

Like that. Okay.

I like that. Again, I've got two shrinks as parents. Um, okay. Currently reading or watching.

Oh, um,

Guilty pleasure. And for good

I finished it, but I, I do, I'm a Yellowstone person. Okay. In terms of watching, um, reading I am going through now, of course. Uh, the way of the heart. Ooh. By Henry now. Yes. With my spiritual director. I love that book. Mm-hmm. Um, and I rec, well I'm not finished with it, so I always hesitate. Yeah. Because with my luck it will take a weird turn the second half of the book. But I'm enjoying a book called The Personal Librarian. It's like a historical fiction. Okay. Yeah. But it's about, there's some real characters in there, so hard to know if maybe there's some truth to mm-hmm. to the story. I'm not sure.

Is this end times related? Nope.

.

It's not. Add

The list Rapture or

Sorry. Okay. Something on your bucket list.

Oh, bucket list. I need to dream more apparently. Um,

Celebrate your bucket list.

That's right. Um, this

Is a speed round.

, it's a speed round. Mm-hmm. . I would really love to go to the holy land sometime. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I would like do one of those time tours and learn, um, a lot about what I'm seeing and yeah. See the Bible from a different perspective and the stories in it from a different perspective. I think that'd be really cool.

Yeah. Let's make that happen. , celebrate that. Okay. Pet peeves.

Oh man. I have a really hard time when, um, certain people chew .

Oh yeah.

Certain people noise of Yes. Like your husband. No, he's pretty good. But no, my family thank God is is okay. But it's not even the person all the time. It's, it's the food. Yep.

I also let you know in what scenario you're close enough to someone who's not your husband and children that you can hear them chew

A lot. For some

People. is this like ice carrots,

Like ships really gets me.

Okay. No, I've got, I've got cuss words already coming out. . Yeah.

And Apple can be really bad. Yep.

Oh

Yeah. And it really, like, I'm a pretty patient person and it, I'm like white and ling my

Seat. Like there's a thing about that, you know, there's like some kinda

I've heard it's a sign of intelligence. I'm hoping that's true.

Oh, interestingly it's cause No, but there's like an actual syndrome or something that I must have it DMS three

12.

But there really is, so if you're listening people, oh

Man. Please

Comment and say it's called

The right word. Whatever. It's .

Seriously. I

Believe it. Believe for sure. I've never seen it in the dsm, but I'm grateful to know there's a term.

I'm sure. 12th version. What DSM are we two at this point? Five. Five? Yeah. Yeah.

Like revised edition or something.

Yeah. Okay. Something you celebrated this week.

Oh, what

A great place. Other than being on this podcast.

Yes. Um, I celebrated this trip to Nashville. I got to meet a lot of people that I've known for a long time online and just fun to hug people again and get to say hi face to face. So

Love

That. That's been really good. You all included,

Obviously. I

Mean that's, thank you

Guys for the first 20 minutes she was here, she just kept talking about how great this podcast . It's, it's, it's for me, just look in the face. I'm not go. She loves this song. Season

Two on Disney Plus would be great. Oh my

Goodness. Not sponsored

.

We'll talk, we'll

Talk. Well Nicole, thank you for being on with us. Thank

You so much.

Such

A gift to me. This would be, is really helpful for us and for our people. I'm so glad. Thank you. So everybody check out her book, what If it's wonderful. Um, and her next book is super exciting. It's called Cats or The Devil Cats

And Glow The Dark Sugar. Some memoir. Yes. . Talk

With my publisher about that one.

Okay. Thank you. Nicole

Zaki. I just like her last name. Yeah. And I don't celebrate it a little bit.

Yeah know I feel like we didn't celebrate her name enough

Crew.

We just did. That's

Okay. It's, but we, I mean we did, we're doing it behind her back, which is totally, which is betters

Better. Like Yeah.

Yeah. That makes sense. Oh,

I didn't want, I don't I just don't wanna offend people cause I don't know, we're not like BFFs like so many people we've had on here. I can just make fun of 'em because we're BFFs. Yeah. But I want to be BFFs with her. She's awesome.

It's like a fun person to hang around.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. . I loved it. I loved, um, the comments about MFT . It was great. Uh, I loved how celebration should be a practiced rhythm. Yeah. So we talked so much with 10,000 minutes about rhythms, putting these rhythms into our days mm-hmm. not just on Sunday morning, but like all week long. What are the rhythms that we're putting into our lives that are just helpful? These aren't like getting us more loved by God, but the rhythms that help us be more aware. And so when she talked about how celebration in and of itself is a practiced rhythm, not based on mood

Mm-hmm. . Yes. Or occasion. And I think that was the beauty of rethinking celebration as a rhythm. Because when you celebrate something consistently, you realign with your reality in a sense. If not, if you're constantly waiting for something to celebrate, you start to believe nothing's worth celebrating. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . So there was the beauty of saying, what if celebration is more of a realigning, it's cultivating something than a really big high that we're constantly chasing in life. Mm-hmm. because everything else is low compared to it. Yeah.

Uh, and celebration should be done in, um, community.

Oh yes.

Like with others, like everything else

Yes. That's the beauty of all these episodes. When you share it with people, you know, um, there's just a bigger picture. You're seeing something richer. Things are just, um, clear. And she's, she talked about how celebrating with others has a power. Mm-hmm. , there's a power to it. Um, there's some healing to it, and it invites other people. That's the beauty. Right. When I celebrate something with you, I'm inviting you to also value celebration in your life.

Yeah. And who, who are you celebrating? Who am I actually going and seeing something in somebody else and celebrating them. Mm-hmm. , which also is helpful for my soul. Mm-hmm. , because it takes me off of my own story and everything that's going on with me, and to go celebrate with somebody else. Mm-hmm. . And then it's helping them celebrate as well. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . That's really

Beautiful. I think celebration is really, like, I think with myself, if I'm celebrating with myself, it's pretty subdued in my head. I'm really not celebrating unless I'm doing it with other people. Hmm. You know what I mean? And, and so it just becomes like exponentially better, uh, with other people. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. , that's a good call. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , uh, and then celebrating. She talked about celebrating in tough times. Mm-hmm. in heartache.

Right. Which, because we're rethinking what's worth celebrating. Mm-hmm. . Right. It's not about the good moments, uh, the moments. We don't have stress or struggle. Right. It just doesn't exist. It's about celebrating that we have another day. There are still people around to help comfort. There's still enough strength to make it through. Those things are what's celebrating as well. Yeah.

I think it's important too that we're, it's not either or. Right. Right. And so oftentimes, like, especially Christians, we kind of do this, like, we're either awesome or not, and that's just not life. Mm-hmm. , you know what I mean? And so she's holding those things realistically. Like no, we can actually celebrate and have joy even when like, things are hard and even when things are bad and, and those things, they, they work together. And if we're honest with ourselves, that's the most healthy place to live and the best place to be. Yes.

So guys, that is the practice for this week. This practice is pause and celebrate something today.

Yeah.

So that, that would be, you know, as I've got this X eczema, my wrist, what's that thing for you that might just remind you to pause and practice celebrating something, uh, in your own life with other people or in somebody else?

And we wanna know what you're celebrating too. Yeah. That's a good call. So please leave a comment. Um, check us out on social media. We love hanging out and hearing what the community, the way you guys are expressing each practice as well. Um, and we learn from you as much as you guys learn from these conversations.

Totally. Totally. So, um, thanks, you too.

Thanks.

Such a good time.

And also, hey, thank you Sarah. T

Woo. Sarah

T what's going on. And here's the deal. Sarah, t um, Sarah t and Diane V. So these are just two more people who are giving every single, uh, month to 10,000 minutes. You can give monthly, weekly, however you want. One big thing. Um, daily.

Daily,

What'd you say? Daily. Daily. You can totally give daily, but it's just supporting and partnering with what we're doing. And if you guys wanna check out the 10,000 minutes text messages, you can text 10 K one zero k to the number 5 5 6 78. So the number is 5 5 6 78. And text one zero k in the subject.

If you'd like a handwritten note from Tim Timmons.

, what do you do? Which did they do?

Well, you just, uh, you, what did they used to say on the commercials? Like, uh, you'd like have to mail in like a over . .

Yeah. Yeah. So if you guys want a handwritten letter, figure it out. Okay. Yeah. Um, so thank you both of you guys for supporting what we're doing. Truly really meaningful. And I just wanted to say something about Sarah's name. Um, I ask this every time I meet a Sarah. I say with

An H or H.

H and o. H. Yeah. Uh, so how many, how many are there more? Hs, do you think?

I don't know. I'm, I was thinking about the Benfold song. Hmm. Zach and Sarah, because he has a lyric about Sarah without an H. Oh, right. Yeah. Pretty sure. Well,

This is a Sarah without an H. Yeah. Oh, okay. And I, I think there's a personality there that like, you either have the H or you don't. I

Feel like Hs are like more conservative. Sarahs, huh? Without the H. Huh? Just a little,

Little more sassy.

A little sassier.

Sarah. T I want to know if you're the sassy

One. I not . Okay. We'll see.

Okay. And also Jennifer C

That could be my sister, . Thanks Jen.

Yep.

If it's not you, then thank you. Anyways, Jen.

Thanks Jennifer. Thanks for not supporting us. You're

Like a sister.

Yeah. All right, you guys. Thank you for listening. Thanks for being a part of this and watching, doing whatever you're doing. Um,

See you next

Time. Ciao.