Season 3 is all about relationships, the ways we navigate them, and practices to help relationships thrive. Today, psychologist and psychotherapist Bill and Kristi Gaultiere (Soul Shepherding) invite us to use the Enneagram to understand ourselves and learn to extend that same understanding in our relationships.
Episode Summary: Season 3 is all about relationships, the ways we navigate them, and practices to help relationships thrive. Today, psychologist and psychotherapist Bill and Kristi Gaultiere (Soul Shepherding) invite us to use the Enneagram to understand ourselves and learn to extend that same understanding in our relationships.
Practice: Be a Spiritual Friend: Listen with empathy when you sit with someone this week or jump on a call. What are they bringing to the conversation today? Are they tired? Worried? Distracted? Invite them to be present to what God is doing in their story!
Show Notes:
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We can be spiritual friends to each other and have conversations where we really are talking about some of the deep inner workings of our soul. We can help one another on and spur one another on in our love and our devotion to Jesus and in our growth and in our self -awareness as we listen with empathy to each other and pray for each other and are trustworthy with holding that space.
[music] Again,
this is what I do for a living, but I just keep can't figure it out you guys every time It seems so cheesy. Anyways, hi Tim Timmons here And I have my guitar in hand as I'm doing this intro.
So this is season three of the 10 ,000 minute podcast and this season we are dealing with relationships And if you have relationships just on lockdown then just skip this whole season if you don't Then you might get a lot of out,
a lot of out of, a lot of out of this season. And remember, our whole point is there are 10 ,000, 80 minutes in a week, 10 ,000, 80 minutes in a week, and 80 of those minutes people spend in some kind of church gathering,
which is awesome, but what's it look like to practice the way of Jesus in the 10 ,000 minutes? Like what would that look like if Jesus people actually looked like Jesus, not just religious people, but actually like Jesus people?
Jesus. And that's really the hope here, is that we would not just talk about a weed actually engage in the practices and the ways of Jesus in the 10 ,000 minutes of the week, joining him,
not like working for him. So this is about relationships. Today we've got an amazing couple, a couple that has been like, they've been heroes of mine for a long time. I've never met them.
I've just, all my life, I've just kind of always known about this couple. So Bill. Bill and Christy Galt here Their authors they founded a thing called soul shepherding had a lot of stuff with Dallas Willard who's one of my greatest heroes as well They help pastors and leaders and churches through emotional and relational health really beautiful But like in the way of Jesus not just just psychology,
but the kind of putting the two together It's really beautiful, but they have a new book out called healthy feelings thriving faith so hopefully this episode hits you and is encouraging to you.
And if it is, would you go and would you like and subscribe to the 10 ,000 Minute Podcast? That would be amazing. Really helpful for us and helpful for you 'cause I need to see every time we have a new podcast out.
And then if you wanna join the 10 ,000 Minute Community, we have a Facebook page that we have a bunch of different things that we put out there. We've got a newsletter that we see. out just to that community Especially if you've been giving to 10 ,000 minutes,
we have stuff that we just send just to you It's kind of like a patreon, but we don't do patreon. Just go to 10 ,000minutes .com and in the upper red hand corner It says partner and financially partner with us because it's not cheap doing this and I was paying for this for ever Just on my own and people just said hey Tim.
Why don't you let us kind of help so would you help us? Keep putting this stuff out, so thank you you. So grateful for you. I think you're going to love this episode and get ready because there are 10 ,000 minutes.
This song is not 10 ,000 reasons. Again, I can't figure out how to do the song yet, but you're going to dig this podcast. Here we go. We've got Bill and Christy Gault here on here.
Hi guys. Hey Tim. Great to be with you So we're in the California's right now where I'm from, but it's where you guys are from I live in Nashville now. So I'm this is like my time out. So I'm doing four podcasts today And I don't care about the other ones who cares about the other people.
You know what I mean? That's what I'm trying to say. You're all in right here right now I'm all in here, which you know, that's kind of who I am as of my personality But I've heard about you guys for years as just legends in the spiritual direction direction formation zone.
And you've spent time with some of my main heroes. And I know my mom is a big fan of your guys. And you've known my mom for years. So we've had my mom in the podcast twice. So each season we've had her on.
And she's just she's awesome. She did one on grief. Mmm. So good. I mean, she rocked my world in so many of our worlds on grief. and Anyway,
she's she's a legend. And so she's not here today, but she wishes she could be here probably to hang that with Okay, so you guys have You have a lot of things going on in 2009 you started soul Shepherding can you just give us a little bit on that soul shepherding?
We help you go deeper with Jesus in emotional health and loving leadership And the best way we do that is in our soul shepherding Institute retreats. Yeah five days in a community of 20 to 40 people at a retreat center in a beautiful location.
And we just go real deep together with Jesus, practice spiritual disciplines, do the training for the other 10 ,000 minutes that we're not in church, right? That's your theme here. And so fun to get up close and personal with people who are all in serving Jesus,
the pastors, missionaries, coaches, spiritual directors, member health providers, the care for missionaries, just all kinds of leaders. And we have resources that we provide to help people continue to grow,
to learn, and then we also have care that we provide in the form of spiritual direction that we offer. We have spiritual directors on our staff that meet with people from around the world, live on Zoom or in person,
also at our retreats. So you guys just came out with a book called Healthy Feelings. Feelings Thriving Faith. And this is an Enneagram based book, is that correct? - Growing emotionally and spiritually through the Enneagram.
And our take on the Enneagram that's different is we take you into your emotions, the different emotions going on with each of the personality types and then we lead you closer to Jesus. - Okay,
so I'm gonna push on something 'cause I live in a place where, and I think these days, there are a lot of people who, you know, Enneagram has come and gone in different seasons,
right? Like, it was huge when, like, in the '70s or something. And I remember my mom telling me about that, and then it had a huge resurgence. And then there have been a bunch of people that I know that are saying,
"This is not biblical. This is not the way of Jesus. This is just pulling us away from the Bible and what Jesus would want." How do you see that? How do you the fusion of the Enneagram and Jesus culture?
Well, you know, we say all truth is God's truth. And with something like a psychological theory or a book that you would read or a sermon that you would listen to, chew the meat and spit out the bones.
You know, nothing is perfect except God himself, the Trinity. And so we think there's a tremendous, value in the theory. It's basically a spiritual psychology approach to understanding personality,
relationships, and spirituality. And there are all kinds of Enneagram teachers, some that are not Christians, some that are even against Christian faith. There are Christian teachers that maybe are Christian in name,
but some kind of new agey. So it really depends upon the teacher and the writer, but anybody that reads our book is good. to see this is saturated with Scripture. It's totally based on discipleship to Jesus,
and we're just using the Enneagram as a tool. Tim, I love the question because the people that are asking the question are sincere. They're earnest. They're asking it because they really want to be true to Jesus.
So I applaud them for that. And yet I also resonate a little bit with them because I remember when I first saw the diagram kind of thing. "I don't know about that." - Yeah, it's really,
you know, the neagram just means nine point diagram. That's all it means. It's not anything ooey, spiritual. As I really got to look into it, yes, there are non -Christians that have spoken into the theory,
but that's the same for the iPhone that I use. - Right. - And I would not use my iPhone because it wasn't directly only developed and spoken into by people that were... were Christians. God's grace and His truth is available.
He makes it available to anybody and everybody. And I have found this as a tool just like my iPhone that can be used in ways that are good and in ways that aren't. And there's a right use and there's a misuse.
And as the right use of the negrum, it is a powerful tool for growth in Christlikeness. - It's just been so interesting having just different friends and people that we know. almost turning on it,
like that we're really into it. And all of a sudden they're like, "Oh no, that's basically the devil is using this tool." You call the tool, yes, he's using this tool to make us more about ourselves and self -help.
So what do you say to those people? - Well, self -awareness is always a good thing, being aware of our sins, our brokenness, our emotions,
our needs, conflicts that we're in. we're having, hopes, gifts that God has given us. So we're using the enneagram and really the language of emotions that God has given us to help you understand your personality and your relationships.
We also see it as a really powerful tool for obeying Jesus' greatest commandment. To love the Lord your God with all your heart, your mind, your street. Love your neighbor as yourself and really coming to understand each other.
We can really grow. using the understanding of the negative with a lot of empathy for each other. Because this personality system is all based around our roots in. And if we really come to understand that root sin and the ways that we are trying to secure ourselves,
even save ourselves, it helps explain a lot of our behavior, a lot of our underlying motivation. And as we can have empathy for each other in that, we can better pray for each other, we can better. better encourage one another in our life in Christ.
And it's also personally just been so helpful to me. I was not conscious of my root sin. I couldn't repent of a sin I wasn't conscious of, and as I became conscious of it through the help of the enneagram and understanding my personality,
it's been incredibly helpful for me. Am I growing out of, depending upon myself to defend against that, and into depending upon Jesus and greater enough to see Him.
- Yeah, that's huge. I just hope my wife and I have helped us so much. Even just seeing our patterns and why I'm going places, why she goes certain places. Yeah, so big.
Okay, would you get into the difference between, 'cause you said earlier, you said that the different way or mode that you guys are entering into the Enneagram is through this emotional piece.
Can you? give a little bit more on that? Well, so Chris and I have spent over 100 ,000 hours combined in the pool of pain. So a lot of that is psychotherapists,
we're not practicing as therapists anymore because now we train spiritual directors and we're running a nonprofit ministry, but we still do coaching and then we train spiritual directors and we meet with people,
our students that we're, we're teaching in our social operating institutes, so we've spent a lot. of time with people in stuff like you mentioned, grief, and all the different challenges that we have in our relationships and in our life.
And as we've done that, and then as we've been using the Enneagram as a tool now for two decades, we've seen that there are four primary emotions of distress that really shape our personalities.
And underneath those four main core emotions are lots of other more more detailed emotions, but they are anger, shame, anxiety or fear and underlying sadness.
So all nine personality types are formed in those four emotions. The basic outline is you've got the gut types, the eights,
nines and one. So that's the eight challengers, the nine peacemakers and the one refraining. reformers, they're typically called perfectionists, but I'm a one,
and so I reformed the title. So the gut types are basically formed in anger, but the way that works is we deny that. It's a little different for the eights 'cause they're more outward with it.
And then you got the twos, the threes and the fours. So the twos are the helpers, the threes are the achievers, and then the fours are the individualists or the artisans. And they're the heart types, and they are especially formed in shame,
and they deny that shame. They're trying not to be in shame. And then we've got the five, sixes, and sevens. So now we're talking your language. The fives are the observers, sixes the loyalists,
and then the sevens the enthusiasts, and they're formed in anxiety or fear. But again, they're trying to deny that. Hmm. So, okay, so what emotion that you're formed in.
I'm reacting out of trying to deny that that's an actual thing. That's right. Okay. And then we have a stress reaction because the power of the Enneagram is a lot Christy was mentioning and becoming aware of our root sin or dysfunction.
That's huge because then we can confess that, we can seek God's forgiveness and grace, and we can learn and grow through that. The other thing that's super helpful is learning our math. And so the Enneagram is a very non -boxy theory of personality that you're more than one type or you relate to other numbers around the clock face.
And so everybody has probably a wing, one of the numbers next to them, maybe both wings. And then they have a stress line and a growth line. That's three, four or five numbers that I especially relate to in addition to my home type.
And so we have a stress line. So like for you as a seven, your stress line is to the one. And so that's an unhealthy place when I'm stressed in some way,
I go to the unhealthy of the one. Yes. And it would be angry. Yeah. Angry reactions. And so we have a line together. So it's opposite for me.
My stress line as a reformer, as a one is to the four, which is a shame type. type. And so in stress, I go into feelings of inadequacy and shame, and I spiral down into melancholy.
But when I'm more relaxed, then I'm more like you as a seven, and I can be assertive and find the positive side of anger, or I can slide down the pole into the negative and have trouble with anxiety.
I said anger, but I meant anxiety. The seven type is an anxious type. It's so true. I mean, I've told many people that that I've been addicted to worry most of my life. I mean, that's just a true statement that I've been trying to figure out.
And for years, yeah, I think I was. I was trying to say that that was not who I was. I'm not worried. And so we seem so nonchalant, but I've got the six wings.
I've got a lot of anxiety down there. So that's the difference that you guys are coming at this with your, your dealing more on the emotional side. - We're treating emotions as like a window into our souls.
When you meet somebody, you say, you know, how do you feel? And so behind the emotions is so much of our personality. So it just helps us with our self -awareness. It helps us like Christy said with our empathy for each other and then our prayer life.
- What's that mean? - Well, like the Psalms, that's our prayer book and they're all expressing emotion. Not just the negative emotions of distress, but also positive emotions.
All the fruit of the Spirit have an emotional component, I mean, they're not emotions, but love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self -control, all those have an emotional aspect to them.
Well, it strikes me there's not a positive gladness or emotion in those four that you're saying. Like each of those have a root that almost feel negative.
- Because that's how we're looking at those emotions of distress that we deny. We also talk about the positive emotion to cultivate for each type. But the point is, is everybody wants to feel the good emotions.
But what we don't realize is that if we're denying or reacting against the negative emotions, the emotions that aren't happy, then it shuts down our emotional. emotional self. And so we don't get as much of the positive.
- So there aren't just four emotions. There are so many different lists of this. There's eight, there's seven, there are 14. - Yeah. - These are four core emotions. Basic emotional postures is another term you could use that are really dominant in your personality that you're defending against,
but that are really harming you and hurting you and are in the way in your relationship with Jesus. And so are these four core hurts because I've read that in your stuff. So this is that same thing. Yes, okay Yes,
okay Can you help me with self -care being a biblical? invitation Well, we we love God and we love other people through our personality through ourself So a lot of lot of Christians get ripped up because in psychological language,
we we talk about the self, like we would talk about identity. And we talk about it as a natural, necessary human construct that is a good and healthy thing that God has given us as self.
But in the Christian world, sometimes we sort of misread the scriptures and think, well, that's like sinful or selfish to have a self. And the scriptures about denying ourself,
we misread the scriptures. that to think I shouldn't have a self. But what we teach in a healthy feeling, thriving faith is that in order to deny yourself, which we are called to do,
to be loving to other people and to be holy and healthy, in order to deny yourself, you need to have a self. So we're going back and forth between spiritual and psychological language there.
And so psychologically, you need to have a self. a self, have a self identity, have self awareness, have a basic sense that you're loved, that you matter, that you cared for, you're aware of who you are,
not just sins or hurts, but also gifts and values. And when we have that sense of self that we're aware of, now I can set it aside in order to be compassionate,
in order to be generous. But if I'm not aware of myself, or I'm living with insecurity or low self -esteem or shame, then what happens is that my myself is like empty or unhealthy.
And so my ability to be empathetic and to be loving is going to not be so good. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not aware. Yeah. And Tim, the nine enneagram personality types are false selves.
They're not our true self in Christ. They're false, false selves. They are false selves. They're way ways that we have developed an identity to try to cope. And we are depending upon those. And underneath those is our true self in Christ.
And that's what we're helping people to get in touch with, to be able to reveal to them this false self they've developed that they're not even aware of. - Yeah. - And the defense mechanisms associated and how that's really getting in the way of their relationship with God.
- Yeah. their ability to receive His grace, His love, His truth, and also be able to give it. Can you give an example of that? So I have a deep insecurity and shame, because that's the core emotion for the heart types,
the two, that I'm not wanted. That would be the major why that I would believe in my false identity. I'm not wanted. It's I need to help people in order to feel wanted,
because in my mechanism to try to secure myself and save myself, I'll become helpful. I'll create dependencies. That makes me feel wanted and secure because I don't believe I'm lovable just for who I am.
That's a false self. But that is the false self that the Negrim 2 lives by. Okay, so what's the false self for the one? Well, ones are always trying to improve things.
and make things perfect. And so if I do it right, then I'll be good. Then I'll be successful, I'll be appreciated by people.
And so it's an endless, like a dog chasing its tail. It's an endless loop of you can never be good enough because you're not living in a world of grace. - And so that core hurt is...
what? - Yeah, the core hurt for the one is anger because ones want to, they want to do it right. They want to be in control and they're carrying resentments from so many burdens and the weight of perfectionism and having difficulty trusting other people to do their part.
So ones just try to do it all. - So why is this helpful? I'm thinking of like one of my kids is a one, I think. I mean, we're, you know, we're open to them being whatever they are,
but it just seems that way. Seems that way that they see the world through that lens. And they're really hard to, I mean, when we say anything that's a little bit negative of like,
have you thought about this? It's like, we just said, you are the dumbest human on the planet. You probably shouldn't be here anymore. I mean, it's that much of an affront to this kid.
kid. Is that talk about that? Yeah. Or help me say it in a different way. Yeah. So one of our kids is a one also and we learned early on thanks to the council of a mentor was not using the integrand at the time,
but the self -critical perfectionistic over earnest child will sort of parent themselves. You want a light touch there because there are there are already have such high self -expectations and a pronus to self -criticism because they're trying to do everything right all the time.
Any feedback feels like a downgrade, feels like pressure. Now, other types besides ones can be perfectionists like sixes, threes, nines, but it's especially an issue for the ones that are trying to do everything right all the time.
Yeah, their motivation is that. that. So everybody else can experience the same thing, but their motivation is trying to be right, trying to be, do it the best that it can be done. - Yes, and one of the reasons why other types might experience the struggle of,
in this example, the Enneagram one, is because of what we were saying earlier about the wings and the lines, the relationships between the numbers. So, you know, Christie's a two with a one wing,
so she has some of that oneness. oneness. It's like a subsidiary personality Yeah, that's how my wife sees the world is a two -one. Are there ways that I can talk to that child? Are there ways that I can be lighter but actually get because I mean we can't even get in It's just like almost a closed door immediately.
Yeah, one of the things I would say yeah I should be asking you because we learned this really with our son is if we wanted him to learn something We needed to give him the opportunity opportunity to teach it because the ones are great teachers and they learn best when they have the motivation to learn it in order to teach it.
That's interesting. Okay, so if there was a thing that you're seeing them doing, not that this is my case, you know, I've never, but if there's something you're seeing them doing that's going down a line that's just not going to be helpful and at some point just hurting them.
How would you speak to them? How would you tell them to teach somebody else that thing? Well, I would actually start with empathy for them. I would try to find ways to articulate what I think the struggle or the pain for them,
the resistance is, or what it is that is motivating that behavior, motivating what you're seeing that's concerning you and empathize with them. So I would start there.
there if they may refuse the empathy externally but they'll probably internally appreciate it and process it and then I would also look with empowering them with what what are some other ideas what it seems like this this isn't really working very well do you think it's working well draw them out and what are some other ideas if you thought about other ways do you like the results you're getting with this and And
partner with them, draw them out, let them feel like they're in control. You're respecting them. They ones need a lot of respect. Yeah. So a couple of things Christy is doing there is valuing experience over like the performance or the doing it right.
The relational tuning into the feeling, the experience, how's this going to work for you, taking it out of the realm of its got to be perfect. And then the other thing that we would do is then maybe back off.
Because if you bear down too much, even with empathy, that can feel confining to a one and a perfectionist. Then you want to give them some space because they had this high felt need for control.
Are you fans of the tests? We have a test. Socialoperating .org /Aneagram. Okay. So say that one more time. Yeah. - Soulsheparding .org /ineagram.
- So would you walk me through my core hurt? - Yeah, so as a seven, you're an enthusiast and you're in the anxiety triad and the root sin is the self -indulgence or wanting to experience more,
more, more, more. - Yeah. - Like we were joking earlier. - Yeah, yeah. More pleasure, more fun, more impact. Something that's new and exciting. And there's a side of that that's wonderful.
I love sevens because that's my consolation point. That's my relaxed self can have more of the seven. But that more, more, more stuff can wear you out and it can lead to not enduring or not dealing with conflicts and challenges.
and stuff like that. So there's a lot of anxiety underneath that and fear that's hidden under the pleasure seeking and the fun and the planning of parties.
And for the six, it's a lot more about the loyalty and the authority structures and planning. I mean, sevens are planning parties, sixes are planning like how to solve problems and how to fix things.
and how to respond to needs and crises. They're often really great at like rescuing and doing emergency work and caring for people. - It's so true. - Real loyal soldiers.
- One of the best runs Bart, he is a six of all sixes and is the best. You want him in those moments, those emergency moments. - Yeah, the sevens are really motivated for pleasure in planning the next fun thing and adventure.
and the sixes are more planning for security, for safety. It's so funny. I feel way more like a six than I do a seven. I've got all those tendencies.
I feel jacked up. Well, some of it's the subtypes. If you were a six with a social subtype, that would have more of a seven -ish feel, the social subtype.
kind of warmer, wants fun and life and energy and can be charismatic in the group setting. So,
yeah, there are nuances there. And in different situations, you might kind of accentuate the wing more than the other. So, sometimes it's tricky. One of the things that's helpful is compare the root sins to see what you relate to more.
Work with the maps because the maps are very different. So the map for the seven is in stress, you take on some one traits of perfectionism and judgmentalism and anger.
That's straight up true. And then the seven that's more relaxed is taking on some traits of a five that's an observer, reading, asking questions like you are right now.
See, that's a big seven. a seven who's mature, who's healthy, who's redeemed, who looks different than a seven who has not done their work, who isn't self -aware, who's just been driven for the desire for pleasure and the next thing.
So we really have a large range. That's one of the things we like about the enneagram. The model of this personality is, as we are transformed in Christlikeness, we look very different and we grow.
- Oh, and so one of the features in the model of Christlikeness is that our book, "Healthy Feelings, Arriving Faith" is Jesus in each type because Jesus is the perfection of each number. And we see in scriptures the way that Jesus really manifests the virtue of each type because each type,
independence on Christ instead of self, really takes on a key virtue that's an opposite of our root sin that we are in. in our false self -denying,
you know, relying upon. So you just said that the healthy side is actually becoming more like Jesus. That is the aim. So it's not just becoming more like your type. It's actually seeing your type,
being more aware of it, learning from it to be made more in the image of God. Yes, it's a reprinting tool. It's to think about your thinking, your faulty thinking, your thinking that's been away from the Lord.
Lord and repent, no, we have to rethink your thinking. - Yeah, rethink your thinking. - Think a new way, that's what we're writing about and healthy feelings, thriving faith. And so we have a section in each of the type chapters of soul care practices for your type to come more like Jesus and getting this vision of Jesus as your type because that's our goal as disciples of Jesus as apprentices is to be able to turn
away from the Lord. from these strategies to secure ourselves and save ourselves and turn towards Jesus. That's so beautifully said. So for you, we have an emotional alarm for each of the types.
It's a wake -up call when you're starting to slide into an unhealthy region of your personality. So for the seven, it's wandering attention. And if you can catch yourself when your attention is wandering to say,
"Okay, what am I feeling Yeah, there's probably some anxiety or some fear in there. Yes. So how would I find that thing? Because I think for the seven, it's harder to get to that place.
Like I have to talk that out. Yeah. Well, a spiritual practice that we teach, two of them, one is talking it out. Spiritual direction would be an example of that.
Having somebody who's holding that space for you, giving you a place to listen to. to the Holy Spirit as they listen to you. Yeah, yeah, it's good. Another practice is to watch and pray,
like Jesus taught the disciples, particularly Peter, in the Garden of Gethsemane. So to watch and pray is to anticipate your struggle to have your attention be wandering and to think the grass is always green around the other side and to not stay with something,
even if it's ultimately a good thing. But once it gets a little boring or it's not fun or it's not new anymore, the tendency to get off of that, well, check that.
Maybe this is something to stay with. And so, when you identify that, then you watch and pray about it. What you're doing is you're anticipating that temptation in upcoming situations in your day,
in your life. You're anticipating that temptation to have your attention wander into to give up or turn away from something that really is better for you to stay with. So then you pray that the Lord would help you to persevere,
to savor the good in the moment, that yeah, there's some anxiousness or some boredom you're feeling, but if you can sit with that a little while, you can then find something positive. Some of us,
I mean, not just sevens, but maybe especially sevens, we never find out what's on the other side of boredom because we so don't want to feel bored. But if we can sit with that long enough, and that's your soul care practice as a seven that we identify is silence,
which is drawing on that healthy five like we're talking about because the healthy five is an observer, they're real good with quiet and silence and loneliness and all that. And so the theory of the enneagram is predicting that as a seven,
you especially need to learn from that healthy five. five in order to be your most healthy, loving seven self. In order to be like Jesus in yourself, you're going to have to learn from some other types.
So the five is the leading choice for you to learn from to help you calm down, slow down, find that observer, ask those questions, experience the moment, get to a place of a quiet mind instead of that busy brain that's scattered all over the place.
And so we practice that. in our prayer closet as we watch and pray, strengthening those spiritual, emotional muscles, and then we can apply them in the grit of real life.
That's a hard place for a seven to go to is silence. I battle that all the time. Silence is really hard for me. I feel it, and then I'm going,
okay, I know I'm filling the space. I'll call that out. But unless I journal or I'm talking to somebody else, I don't always know how to really do silence well.
And I know people have said, "Well, if you just hang out, just enjoy the silence." I feel like I'm not being productive. And I'm like, "Okay, just stop. Just be silent. Just enjoy.
God, if you want to say something great, if not great." But I don't do that well. Are there people? that would help me lean into that or learn how to do that better? Or am I asking the wrong question?
I think there are practices. I do think this is something that you can grow in, and I think that also to do it in community is going to be really helpful to you, because you're a relational guy.
You like people, and you need others who can hold the space with you to start to learn it with with you. I think that's going to help. I think the other thing is incremental small pieces and to understand some of the resistance,
which is one of the things that we're pointing out. That's huge. Yeah. So the sevens, you're always trying to avoid pain and that there's a root fear underneath that you can't count on anybody.
So to enter into a time of silence, that could be pain. that getting in touch with the realities, because sevens, also the defense mechanism is idealization,
always wanting to look at the positive and the happy and the ideal. But if you withdraw and you let yourself get in touch with the grief under all the things that aren't ideal and all the pain,
that's pretty scary for you. That's a habit that you have been avoiding in your life. your life. Yeah, yeah. I think there can be sort of maybe be too hard on yourself if you think that silence has to be 10 hours in a monastery,
you're not talking and you're all alone. And so I think like when you're processing your feelings with your wife or a friend or a spiritual director, that can quiet your heart. And that's really the quiet mind is what we're after there.
Or like Christy said, if you're in a community setting like in our Soulshaping Institute retreats, we teach people how to be quiet. We do quiet together for part of like a scripture meditation.
We do Lectio Divina and that includes a few minutes of quiet between the readings of the scripture. And we teach people how to give and receive empathy and to be good at empathy. You need to listen, you need to be quiet and take in other people's words.
So when you're engaging, relating, that's a kind of quiet. Another example would be a breath prayer. That's something that you talk about here on 10 ,000 Minutes. We've got breath prayers in the Healthy Feelings book,
but just simple moments. It doesn't have to be hours or even like dozens of minutes. It could be just 30 seconds, 60 seconds. A number of times today, I slowed myself down just by taking a deep breath.
Just say, "Thank you." you, Lord." And it's a prayer habit that I've cultivated. It just helps me to be in the moments, enjoy the moments, get my relational centers on,
stop the helter -skelter, hurry and be in God's presence and follow the Lord's lead. The underlying for me would be that I'm avoiding pain.
And I don't know how to identify that. that, because I know that. I mean, I've studied plenty of Enneagram. We love this tool. I mean, it's been so helpful, and it's been part of many of our conversations.
But I don't know how personally to get to that place of finding that pain. Well, I think that you probably, when you're reading, certainly as people are reading our book,
light bulbs are going on. and you're getting some language for things. Language is a big deal because then you can hold on to it. You can pray about it. You can begin to learn self -control in that area.
I think the process of talking it out, this is why we train spiritual directors and why we offer spiritual direction ministry is because when someone is really good at listening and listening prayerfully.
prayerfully and understands things like the anagram or another big one that is our other book, Journey to the Soul, but it's the stages of faith. We name the Christ stages of faith with Christ as an acronym,
but a spiritual director, at least the ones that we train, they know the stages of faith and so they can get a read on what stage of faith that you're in, like they can get a read on what your personality type might be and then now that becomes a listening posture,
a frame to understand that person. So if you're getting that for yourself, it's giving you handholds, but still what you're, part of what you're saying, Tim, is that you're needing help to slow down.
And that's where I think the best thing is something like talking with a spiritual director and that person who's listening to you, the light bulbs are gonna start to come on and you're gonna see what you're resisting.
- Yeah. Or if you... take a walk in nature, a favorite place, or you love music, you produce music, I'm sure that that quiets your heart, even like praying and reflecting on the lyrics of a new song probably helps you get in touch with some things.
And so that's how we can name those resistances, certainly in prayer and in journaling. But I think the thing that's the most foolproof is talking to somebody. The body of of Christ is Jesus incarnate to us.
And when you can talk with somebody, especially a spiritual director that's trained, that can help you to identify those resistances and work them through. But not everybody has the spiritual director.
Are there things that we just as friends can help each other identify? Absolutely. And that's why Bill and I, our podcast is called Soul Talks, because we can be...
spiritual friends to each other and have conversations where we really are talking about some of the deep inner workings of our soul. We can help spur one another on in our love and our devotion to Jesus and in our growth and in our self -awareness as we listen with empathy to each other and pray for each other and are trustworthy with holding that space.
space. followers.
And how freeing it is to know that we don't have to heal, endure, or navigate life alone. God is present with and through us. What would happen if we lived like that or true?
God is present with and through us. So how about this week we practice being spiritual friends with each other? Let's listen to each other with empathy and ask intentional questions.
This week when we ask someone, how have you been? What's up? How are you? Show up intentionally ready to hold space for that person. Jesus, give us eyes and ears to hear and to see the stuff that you're at work in.
If I'm the friend, what are the things that I'm looking for? If you and I were sitting down talking and you're just sharing and I could be a spouse, I could be a friend, whatever, but if we're sitting down talking and you're just sharing some of your day,
some of the things that you've been thinking about, what are the things that I'm, I mean, obviously, there's a spiritual element of this of saying, "Spirit of God, thank you that you're here," and open my eyes to see things that I wouldn't normally see.
Are there certain questions or certain things that that person can be engaging in? Yeah, open questions. So, and it's just simple stuff like, tell me about your day or what's been going on with you.
Or, Dallas Willard's favorite question was, what's been bothering you? That that's his spiritual direction question. It doesn't seem spiritual at all, what's bothering you? - Yeah. - The sort of the ultimate spiritual question would be,
well, how are you sensing God in your activities? But we don't normally start there. We normally just start with, how are you feeling? Back in the beginnings of psychotherapy in 18th century,
it was called the talking cure. Because talking about our self and our life and our experiences with someone who's listening, all the more if they're listening prayerfully and they're a Jesus follower, it's actually curative.
I don't find most people are curious. I was shaped by some really curious people, really curious people. But as I travel, and experience new friends and new groups,
it's really rare to find people who actually will ask questions or be curious about people. I don't think it's a practice that we are good at or have been taught.
I mean, it might need to be more of a practice. Something that Jesus people might need to be more practiced in is the hospitality of listening to somebody else or asking questions. I don't know how to like make other people 'cause I ended up asking so many questions all day.
I mean, it's just, 'cause I love it. I'm so curious about your story. - Right. - But it's so rarely reciprocated. - Yes, and that's a sad thing. And I'm sure,
Tim, that you who are listening to 10 ,000 Minutes, you have become more curious because Tim is curious. And so like you're asking us a lot of curious questions.
you're open -minded, you're inquisitive. Those are great listening skills, are great skills of love. And normally the way we learn something in life, and of course we can learn from books, but a great way to learn,
the best way to learn is really from people. It's in relationships. I mean, of course God, but God often does his best work through people. So to learn to be more curious, get around somebody that's more curious.
Listen to 10 ,000 Minutes. minutes and you're gonna learn questions to ask and the demeanor and the attitude behind that. - What I've been learning lately as I'm studying scripture is that it seems to be so much more that the fruit of the spirit actually are for you.
So that the fruit of the spirit in me is not for me, it's for my kids, it's for the person that cuts me off on the road, it's for you today, it's for the waitress, it's for others.
others. And the beauty of how you guys are describing the work of the Enneagram, which is spiritual formation, you're seeing it as spiritual formation so that we become these beautiful representatives of Jesus to everybody around us.
It's for the glory of God. It's like Delfs Willard, our manager, said, "What God gets out of your life is who you become." Say that one more time. What God gets out of your life is who you become.
kind of person like you're saying the fruit of the spirit and I want you to have some fruit of the spirit to feed off of to yeah, and so that comes through your your relationships obviously with the spirit of Jesus but with people and I think that God draws us over time And seasons come and go but into a space of overflow leave leading,
overflow service, overflow ministry. So even as I'm ministering the fruit of the spirit or God, this Holy Spirit, is ministering the fruit of the spirit through me, usually without me even realizing it,
right? I'm not conscious of it. It's not like I'm trying to do it. Like I'm trying to push out fruit. It's character. It's coming off of my connection to God. It's coming off of the training and the practices that I've been doing.
God's grace just works. through my personality. But even as we are loving other people, serving other people, God wants us to have soul food as well so that we just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives,
right? Second Corinthians 1. So also the comfort of God that comes to us, then comes through us to others. So the best way that people can get your stuff is how?
SoulShelving .org. It's all right there. So you can learn about the SoulShelving Institute retreats that we lead there. You can talk with a spiritual director. And wherever books are sold,
you can buy healthy feelings, thriving faith, growing emotionally and spiritually through the Enneagram. On our website, we have a number of other books and resources, including your Enneagram map.
And also, Journey of the Soul, wherever books are sold. are sold. And we also have a spiritual growth path assessment that goes with that to identify what Christ stage you're in,
what stage of emotional spiritual growth you're in. And that also might be something that resonates with people, especially if they're struggling at the wall, feeling disoriented, feeling like church isn't for them anymore.
Or it's starting to get more emotionally honest and use some tools like the Enneagram that are really good inner. journey tools for a healing, a reorientation, a reconstruction. - Thanks, you guys. Isn't that good?
Okay, so a little recap for me. A few bullet points that stood out to me. So the Enneagram is a tool, which I love seeing it as a tool, not, it's not the point. It's a tool that can help us understand the why of who we are.
So the more we understand our own stories, I love this, the more we understand our own stories. the more we can begin to understand the stories of others. And remember, our whole point on earth is not for our own sake, but it's for the sake of the others around us.
So that's why I love this idea of understanding what's going on inside of me so that I can become a more beautiful Jesus re -presenter in this world. The second thing is relationships can be space where we help each other understand ourselves.
So by showing up with curiosity, curiosity, like that is such a big deal that we would show up with each other with curiosity. It's like the practice that we're gonna do this week. So speaking of the practice, be a spiritual friend.
That is our practice as a community. I mean, we're being a spiritual friend as we're listening to people, holding empathy with people, we're sitting with someone and we're jumping on a call, whatever that looks like,
what are they bringing to the conversation today? Are they tired? Are they worried? Are they worried? distracted? Invite them to be present to what God is doing in their story.
Let's just be curious. Jesus, what do you have? So if you wanna join our Facebook group and let us know some of the stories of how this is going, it would be so encouraging for us. So go to our Facebook page.
The link is in the show notes below. Let's practice all this stuff as a community, not just as individuals, but who are you doing this with? with? So we'd let us know how these practices are going in your life,
like positive and negative. And then check out the show notes to learn more about Bill and Christie, their podcasts, their books, their programs, all that stuff. Thanks for listening, you guys. And subscribe to our podcast if you want to hear more.
Remember to hit that like button, smash it, if you will, and tell other people about this. That'd be amazing. And would you sign up for our free week? encouraging text messages?
If you've not already done that, you put 10K10K to the number 59925. 59925, yeah, 59925 is the number.
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